5-6-05

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:35 am

They passed the national ID under the guise of "the war on terror" on thursday.

With that ID, you could track a person's health care, credit record, job history, party affiliation, etc., all lumped together conveniently for one-stop shopping.

B-

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:39 am

You should move to America. OUR government only monitors you by taxing everything you could ever possibly want to do!

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:11 am

Fusion pimp, where?

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:13 am

Tick, tock, tick, tock...

The coming totalitarian lockdown has been in planning for a while. The War on Terror is just being used as an excuse for all of this.

Next up: implants in your right hand and forehead.

OUR government only monitors you by taxing everything you could ever possibly want to do!

And it's perfectly legal, since you don't own half the things you think you do (cars, house, property house is on, your money, etc.)

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:25 am

Roid,

The United States Of America, heard of it?

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:27 am

stryker's comment had me confused.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:39 am

"party affiliation"? o_O

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:39 am

Erk.... I thought you were from England.

It's not really anything new; it's just your SS # and the rest of the gunk they throw at you to identify you, tied into one.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:28 pm

Playing Chicken Little, Sky?

One bill gets passed, and some of you act like Hitler was just resurrected.
It's not as if all of this information, and then some, wasn't known beforehand. I've resigned myself to the fact that the government knows a hell of a lot about me; the way that they choose to organize that information is up to them. It doesn't affect my life in any way.

Fusion Pimp, do you have a source for this?

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:55 pm

Topgun, Just google it, there's lots of info on.

The sky isn't falling... Yet!

Hitler? you're close...
anyway, it's interesting how those that are concerned are tagged as Paranoid, fringe, etc..Since when has questioning the motives of a government who's already been proven currupt, deemed unpatriotic?

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:08 pm

When they install a tracking network I'll be concerned but for now it just means the cards printed info can be checked against a database to verify the card isn't a forgery.
The chip has a digitized photo in it. It may also contain a digitized copy of your fingerprint or retinal scan in the future but still, those are readily available without the use of the chip to industrious people.
As far as I've read no medical records or other personal info is stored on the card but it will be in the database that the card is linked to.

I don't like the way they passed it attached to a bill that most congressmen considered a "must pass" bit of legislation.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:10 pm

I call 'em as I see 'em...and from the few links I read on the subject (most of which seemed to be rather vague), the people opposed to this seem a little bit obsessive. Surely there are many more serious issues and problems in this country to devote one's effort to; I can think of many myself. Once again, I'll honestly say that I don't see any harm in putting information on your driver's license that the government already knows and that a police officer can look up within a matter of minutes. I know that the government has this information, and to be honest, I'm not really bothered by it; it's just another one of those things that's outside of my control. I can't find anything specifically unconstitutional about the concept, either.

As for the government being corrupt, every government in human history has been corrupt.

I think we're by far on the mild side of the corruption spectrum. And comparing our current president or government to the Nazi party...that's stretching it even for a conspiracy theorist. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, and this issue, and more generally, most actions of our government, don't set off too many warning bells in my head.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:11 pm

Here's an excerpt with the content of the card:
What's going to be stored on this ID card?
At a minimum: name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photograph, address, and a "common machine-readable technology" that Homeland Security will decide on. The card must also sport "physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes."

Homeland Security is permitted to add additional requirements--such as a fingerprint or retinal scan--on top of those. We won't know for a while what these additional requirements will be.

from here

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:18 pm

I think we're by far on the mild side of the corruption spectrum.

Two words- John Perkins.

"Conefssions of an economic hitman"

Mild? Hardly.

Furthermore; Do you feel confident intrusting our "national security" to the department of motor vehicles?

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:24 pm

Never heard of him, but the first site on Google that popped up about him made him seem like another new-age mystical nutjob.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:31 pm

It's funny how anyone who dares to expose government corruption is "whacko....nutjobs... fringe".

Maybe I trust too little,or, maybe you trust too much.. only time will tell.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:44 pm

Playing Chicken Little, Sky?

No. I'm just annoyed. I've come across a lot of information while doing research for the last few months that has both aggravated me and made me fearful. Here's one interesting fact I'm sure you didn't know: we have been in a consistent state of national emergency since 1933 thanks to socialist FDR; the Constitution has been suspended for over 72 years (and every President (even Bush has) since FDR has renewed the national emergency every 2 to retain the phenomenal powers FDR had), as were your rights. Need a license to do virtually anything these days, eh? "Constitutional Dictatorship".

anyway, it's interesting how those that are concerned are tagged as Paranoid, fringe, etc..Since when has questioning the motives of a government who's already been proven currupt, deemed unpatriotic?

Word up, B.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:16 pm

Will Robinson wrote:When they install a tracking network I'll be concerned

Remember my thread on a gas tax based on miles driven...where every car will have a Lojax type tracking chip installed? Or how some parents are imbedding a similiar chip in their children in case they are kidnapped? Methinks we are nearer to a national tracking system than further.
You don't suppose in that ID card a chip could be placed that could be turned on at any give time to check where you are at? Nah...that could never happen.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:10 pm

Cool.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:46 pm

Woodchip the chip is always "on" it has to be close enough to a scanner to be read. Aproximately 30feet is the max range right now...

As to the Sky's link where they say it's not been debated....

It's not quite truthful because most of the components of that bill were debated as the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (P.L. 108-458), sometimes referred to as the 9/11 bill, in December 2004.

It has yet to show up in the senate I believe so there's a long way to go before we can say what it really is.

Here's a description from a part of a letter from Sen. Cantwell in Washington state. It's kind of interesting because in her letter she didn't seem to want to say what she thought of the bill.

************
As the REAL ID Act is a complex piece of legislation, it may
interest you to learn more about three of its key provisions. First,
REAL ID would preempt state and local laws regarding the
issuance of driver's licenses and personal identification cards.
Instead, the bill establishes minimum issuance standards for
federal recognition of state driver's licenses or personal
identification cards.

Prior to issuing the identification card, the state and issuing agency
(for example, the local Department of Motor Vehicles) must verify
the validity of an individual's: photo identification document, or
non-photo document that includes both the individual's full legal
name and date of birth; date of birth; name and most current local
address; and Social Security number or ineligibility for a Social
Security number.

In short, the REAL ID Act repeals the ability for states to approve
issuing driver's licenses or personal identification cards to any
individual without legal documentation of his or her stay in the
United States.

Proponents of this provision maintain that establishing a uniform
driver's license and personal identification card system throughout
the United States will increase homeland security. Issuing
agencies would be required to confirm all identification
information, making it more difficult for people to use fraudulently
attain a state issued identification card. In addition, making it
effectively illegal for an undocumented immigrant to receive an
identification card makes it difficult for this category to obtain
employment, travel by air, enter many federal buildings, as well as
many other privileges reserved for individuals living legally in the
U.S.

However, opponents of this provision view driver's licenses as
serving a public safety interest. Studies, such as a January 2003
report conducted by the American Automobile Association (AAA)
Foundation for Traffic Safety, have consistently found that
unlicensed drivers are more likely to cause serious traffic accidents
that lead to injury, death, and property damage. Studies have also
shown that unlicensed drivers are more likely than licensed drivers
to be uninsured. Driver's licenses are also a prerequisite for
purchasing car insurance. States that have chosen to issue driver's
licenses to undocumented immigrants have found that the number
of uninsured drivers drops.

Furthermore, driver's licenses provide law enforcement with
information about who lives in a given community. The Interstate
Driver's License Compact is the most comprehensive database of
individuals in the United States, containing all of the information
included on a person's driver's license and their driving history. It
is important to note that an individual's criminal record has no
relation to that individual's driver's license, regardless of
citizenship status. Currently 46 states and the District of Columbia
take part in the Compact, meaning that, if necessary, law
enforcement officers can access the names, pictures, and addresses
of several hundred million drivers, usually regardless of their
citizenship status.

A second key provision of the REAL ID Act affects the physical
borders of the United States. In 1990, the federal government
began building a steel wall along the southern border between San
Diego, California and Mexico. After three years, the wall was 14
miles long, stretching into the Pacific Ocean, and ten feet high.
While the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant
Responsibility Act of 1996 gave discretionary authority to the
Attorney General to waive the Endangered Species Act of 1973
and the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 for the
purposes of building barriers for national security, the federal
government has been in dispute with several agencies of the
California state government regarding several other laws. The
REAL ID Act would give discretionary authority to the Secretary
of Homeland Security to waive any law if needed to construct
border barriers. Furthermore, the REAL ID Act prohibits any
judicial review of any waiver or action authorized by the Secretary
for the barriers.

A third key provision of the REAL ID Act would reform current
laws governing eligibility for asylum. Currently, an individual
applying for asylum to the United States must demonstrate a well-
founded fear that if returned home, he or she will be persecuted
based upon race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular
social group, and/or political opinion. The REAL ID Act would
establish expressed standards of proof, requiring the asylum seeker
to provide corroborating evidence that one these determinants was
or will be the single, central motive for persecution in the person's
home country.

These three key provisions of the REAL ID Act of 2005
demonstrate the complexity and spectrum of this bill. Again,
please know that I will keep your views in mind should I have the
opportunity to consider this or similar legislation.

Thank you again for contacting me to share your thoughts on this
matter. Finally, you may be interested in signing up for my weekly
update for Washington state residents. Every Monday, I provide a
brief outline about my work in the Senate and issues of importance
to Washington state. If you are interested in subscribing to this
update, please visit my website at http://cantwell.senate.gov.
Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of
further assistance.
Sincerely,

Maria Cantwell
United States Senator
**************

This was from a response to one of her constituents who wrote to tell her he wanted her to vote against it.

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:40 pm

I'm with Barry and Sky on this one. The direction the wind is blowing these days is pretty alarming. I value my privacy and it's sad to see it evaporating.

I've also noticed (in general, not universally) that kids and big-city dwellers are generally less alarmed by big brother because they're used to living in close quarters and having to make compromises on their privacy.

Barry, when I labeled you "fringe" I didn't mean anything negative by it, it was just a good-natured and casual opinion I had. I also meant fringe in relation to the general populace (who are generally apathetic about these things) and not fringe on an absolute scale. I'm in agreement with you on about half of your hot-button issues; I guess that makes me half-fringe?

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:53 pm

Some Guy

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:08 pm

The Bill's Text

Btw (to no one in particular):

The line of reasoning that "I am not a terrorist, I have nothing to hide." is one that can lose all of the freedoms you enjoy.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:01 pm

That's one way of looking at it, and may hold true in many circumstances, but in this case, let me ask you: what specific freedoms are being given up? I'd just like to hear some ideas on that side of the spectrum. Whether you agree with that quote or not, though, you have to admit it's a perfectly human reaction. If someone doesn't feel that something will personally impact them, if they feel that they will not be affected in any way, they're much more likely to have no problems with it. This can lead down a dangerous road, as you said, but it's still something that most people would be inclined to do. I don't really see this particular case as being an overly strong example of that line of thinking, though that's just my personal opinion.

For me, personally, some real concerns I would have about this bill would fall more under the lines of states' rights issues, or about the one line that "prohibits judicial review," which seems kind of strange, or about police officers/judges having to be identified as such, not about fears of the US turning into a police state.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:23 pm

I don't really see this particular case as being an overly strong example of that line of thinking, though that's just my personal opinion.

Neither did I. I threw it in for the hell of it.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Tue May 10, 2005 2:49 pm

Hey, G.
I used the word fringe because it was one of the few words I was able to recall at the time to make my point. My vocabulary is aweful

You're not the only one who has labeled me fringe.

It wasn't taken negatively, no worries. I knew what ya meant, no explaination needed. Thanks though!

In a weird way I was sort of proud to be called fringe. heh

B-

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu May 12, 2005 10:13 pm

Wait, let me get this straight. Is it possible, in the United States of America, to be issued a citation for not having "identification" on you? That sounds very police state-ish...I'm sick and tired about hearing about the activist judiciary, how about the activist politicians that are wiping their azzes with the Constitution?

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:25 am

you don't by law have to have identification on you in australia.
but there is actually an old law, still in effect (although not enforced) called the Vagrancy Law, that says that you actually have to have at least a certain amount of money (2 shillings iirc) on you at all times, YOU CAN/COULD BE ARRESTED FOR NOT HAVING IT.

so there's this expression "got your 2 bob?" (bob being slang for shilling).

i think by todays standards that'd be the equivalent of $0.10AU.

i haven't researched the law, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had racism at it's heart. basically giving the authoritys to arrest a cultural native aboriginal man (since he'd have no use for money, being a man of the land) and remove him from a city. cultural war. but still, that's just my guess.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:32 am

"Woodchip the chip is always "on" it has to be close enough to a scanner to be read. Aproximately 30feet is the max range right now... " Will

So just how does this chip emit energy? Is it different from a credit cards strip that is read by passing it through a magnetic scanner?
More importently will it make one impotent?

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:56 am

woodchip it sounds like a similar technology used in traditional "keep it on a keychain" security cards thesedays. i've always loved them coz they can be read through your wallet, you only have to swipe your wallet in teh general vicinity of teh reader (within a few inches) and it will securely read it. it's powered by the electromagnetic field emitted by the reader, so when it's not being read it is a completely passive unpowered device.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:26 am

RFID 101

Invented in 1969 and patented in 1973, but only now becoming commercially and technologically viable, RFID tags are essentially microchips, the tinier the better. Some are only 1/3 of a millimeter across. These chips act as transponders (transmitters/responders), always listening for a radio signal sent by transceivers, or RFID readers. When a transponder receives a certain radio query, it responds by transmitting its unique ID code, perhaps a 128-bit number, back to the transceiver. Most RFID tags don't have batteries (How could they? They're 1/3 of a millimeter!). Instead, they are powered by the radio signal that wakes them up and requests an answer.

Most of these "broadcasts" are designed to be read between a few inches and several feet away, depending on the size of the antenna and the power driving the RFID tags (some are in fact powered by batteries, but due to the increased size and cost, they are not as common as the passive, non-battery-powered models). However, it is possible to increase that distance if you build a more sensitive RFID receiver.

RFID chips cost up to 50 cents, but prices are dropping. Once they get to 5 cents each, it will be cost-efficient to put RFID tags in almost anything that costs more than a dollar.

From here

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:46 am

So whenever we walk into a building we are going to be, in essence, logging in to our friendly caretaker govt.
Oh Joy! Maybe we should all go to a cash based society and leave the I.D. card in the car when we shop.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:11 am

woodchip wrote:Maybe we should all go to a cash based society and leave the I.D. card in the car when we shop.

Until the intellectual elite decide that cash is too anonymous... There wouldn't happen to be an extra "New World" out there somewhere, would there?

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:26 am

I think it's called Mars, and it isn't quite as inviting as America was. Might explain why Bush is in such a hurry to get there though.

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:32 am

dude*, i wouldn't call someone part of the "intellectual elite" if they thought cash was TOO anonymous.
i'd call them "authoritarian", perhaps nieve, and i'd therefore QUESTION their claim of intellect

.

(* oh i mean ★■◆●

)

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:47 am

Is this required to be carried at all times...

I am really busy and I dont have time to research this but I really want to very soon.

If its required to be on you at all times it will never fly, entire cities in california will refuse...including mine. That would just start card burning ala Gandhi

That cant be the case. Someone explain what the id is going to be required for, please

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:11 pm

From what I've read of the article, the practical form this would probably take would be in a redesigned driver's license, which is something most people have on them at all times anyway. I'd be interested in hearing more concrete details myself.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:32 pm

roid wrote:dude*, i wouldn't call someone part of the "intellectual elite" if they thought cash was TOO anonymous.
i'd call them "authoritarian", perhaps nieve, and i'd therefore QUESTION their claim of intellect .

(* oh i mean **** )

Yeah. I don't know the word for how I was employing that phrase, but it's something along the lines of sarcasm.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:55 pm

woodchip wrote:So whenever we walk into a building we are going to be, in essence, logging in to our friendly caretaker govt.
Oh Joy! Maybe we should all go to a cash based society and leave the I.D. card in the car when we shop.

Hehe! Hold one of those new 20 dollar bills up to the light and you'll see they have a version of the chip in them! Microwave it and you'll see where it burns the strip that has the RFID in it.
Of course they don't have your info in them but it's a anti-countefiet measure.
**********

Birdseye, there is no talk of 'must carry' but to use an airline, enter a government building or recieve government services you'll need it.