DescentBB

After receiving a pretty overwhelmingly positive response on the Doom 3 World boards, I've seriously considering getting a TC Descent-into-Doom 3 mod going. I'm a professional C++ programmer myself and I don't think the Doom 3 code will give me too much trouble to get the basic movement in (joystick support might be harder). Quaker-X, a fairly well-known Quake mapper, has also signed up to help with the maps.

What I'd like is to get the feel for whether anyone would be interested in helping out, even if it's just providing ideas for gameplay (I think we'd like to get MP going first) or just concept art, although if you want to help with any other aspect of mod-making, please let me know at hexetic@hotmail.com (or via MSN at the same address).

The Doom3world thread is at the following location:

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10393

I'm thinking the goal of the mod would be to create an intensely dark MP experience, resembling more the "Aliens Vs Predator" games or the Quake II mod "Night Hunters" (if any of you played that). The beautiful, heavy shadows of the Doom 3 engine should make for very interesting hide-and-seek gameplay when combined with Descent-style flares and headlights.

I notied that a few people have given thought to UT2K4 and HL2 mods, but I guess those never got off the ground. Let me tell you that I fully intend to pull this off, starting with the physics of 3D Descent-style movement.

I've also enlisted some conceptual artists; this is a work-in-progress image by my friend, KingOfNod:

http://www.n00bstories.com/image.fetch. ... 1323419694

Anyways, just wanted to send out some "feelers" to see what people think. If you have any suggestions at all, please post them either here or in the Doom 3 World thread. I'll be monitoring both. For now, I'm a little preoccupied with another project but I'm also holding out for the Doom 3 1.3 patch and SDK which should be coming in the next week or two.

Ok, I have no skillz, but I'd be happey to help

I can draw and i can test. Ya know.. that Pyro GX model would be kickass for something like this. It's a pretty smooth model. You can get it at PlanetDescent.

UT2K4 had some fundamental assumptions on the engine side that would be non-trivial to work around. I don't really know what the limits of the Doom 3 engine are, but the prospect is pretty interesting. The darkness of Doom 3 is probably where Descent should have gone. Descent 3 was just a bit too bright and happy compared to the grittyness of the originals.

I'd wait for quake4 if you want to use an ID engine. As it looks like they brought back lightmaps from what I've seen, or at least made it easier to light large areas with eating into the light count limit... because, well all lights in doom3 are point lights. textures don't cast light... well because there are no radiosity preprocessing.

Doom3 is probably a good engine as any to use either way.

Great idea ! IMHO it will be hard to get the Descent "feeling" right tho. Descent 3 eg. is extremly fast paced, not sure the Dm3 engine can keep up w/ that. Would be nice if could could post/send a few pointers to some modding docs I could check out -- maybe I can help w/ code.

Kyouryuu, I'm going to poke around in the Doom 3 movement and physics code as soon as the 1.3 SDK comes around. Given that Doom 3 is one of those "we-want-to-license-this-to-everyone" engines, it's pretty likely that there won't be any problems with fundamental restrictions on planar movement.

Grendel, I was actually hoping for a slower pace. Mostly I remember playing anarchy in the original Descent as being a minute or two of tension followed by ten or twenty seconds of furious battle. By using deep shadows, I'm hoping to intensify and draw out the "tension" period. Doom 3 doesn't have much trouble doing small-scale frantic battles.

I'm working on a sort of baseline "requirements doc" right now that Quaker-X is going to review and then I'll post publicly for feedback.

Wow, this sounds like a great idea. It sounds like it might recapture that Descent1 atmosphere. Plus, it'll put my copy of Doom3 to good use.

fliptw wrote:I'd wait for quake4 if you want to use an ID engine. As it looks like they brought back lightmaps from what I've seen, or at least made it easier to light large areas with eating into the light count limit... because, well all lights in doom3 are point lights.

Actually, Doom 3 supports spot and parallel lights (parallel lights have all light rays pointing the same direction making it an excellent choice for outdoor sun light). Outdoor lighting generally just requires very large lights, which aren't really that bad...it's overlapping lights which can be problematic, and generally there aren't that many light sources in an outdoor area (just the sun, and then perhaps an ambient light to soften up the shadows...Doom 3 supports ambient lighting, with proper ambient bumpmap lighting as well). It shouldn't be a problem if it's needed.

I've posted a design document for the mod in the Doom3World thread; if you're at all interested in working - and "working" could mean anything from play-testing, to conceptual sketches, to mapping, to sound design, to 2D artwork, to whatever - then please have a look-see and post your comments.

http://www.chmodoplusr.com/IntoCerberon ... nts_v3.pdf

The doc is 14 pages and 229 KB. Included within are 16 weapons (not all of them copied from Descent) and 8 gameplay type, a few of which are not your standard FPS fare.

A few notes, comments, and criticisms:

1) on page 1, you say "Multiplayer â?? which included co-operative as well as forms of deathmatch â?? was played in the same levels as the campaign." For most of us here, this was not true. Multiplayer *could* be played in campaign levels, but it was much better in levels specifically designed for it.

2) on page 2, you say "The weapons in Descent remain similar to those used in other popular First-Person-Shooter (FPS) games, although the functioning was slightly different." One important point -- and one reason Descent multi is very different from most other FPS's I've played -- is that very few of the weapons were instantaneous (Vulcan, Gauss, Vauss, and Mass driver only.) This led to a heavier emphasis on moving/dodging than aiming, in comparison to most other FPS's, where landing the first shot was usually the key to victory.

3) on page 4, section 3.11, you say "Hit-angle indicators as in Half-Life should be added to the centre area of the screen, around the
targeting cursor. These indicators will flash to indicate the direction of incoming fire that has
wounded the player." Are you certain this is a good gameplay modification?

4) At the page transition between pages 6 and 7, you describe your idea for the fusion cannon. What you've described is very much not like Descent fusion. This is not likely to go over well with Descent players.

5) The "autocannon" described on page 8 sounds more like the D2 gauss cannon than any other Descent gun.

6) The "blast missile" described on page 10 sounds a lot more like an impact mortar than a blackshark.

7) There are a number of interesting gameplay modes described. Good luck in getting them all working.

Oops, I thought I fixed the blackshark before I released the PDF.

Thanks for the good criticisms. I *thought* there was a D2 gun similar to my idea for the Autocannon, but D2 is the Descent game that I played the least of and remember the least (mainly because my copy was the 3Dfx GLiDE-only "Destination: Quartzon 3D").

Are you certain the fusion cannon is nothing like the BFG from Doom3? In Doom3 you do have to charge it up. Could you be more specific about the differences?

The hit-indicators was kind of a last-minute idea. Maybe they won't be necessary, or maybe they'll detract from the experience. The doc is mostly a list of ideas of things we *could* do as opposed to things we *must* do.

As for your point about the weapons being mostly not hit-scan based, yes, I completely agree and I should talk a bit more about it. I'll try to emphasise that point a bit more in the next revision.

Most of my D1 LAN gaming was on the first three shareware levels (especially #2). Basically what I meant to say is that at the time Descent came out, *most* FPS games had their DM matches on the campaign levels (e.g., Doom, Duke Nukem 3D) although of course people did play on custom maps as well. I don't know exactly what I was trying to do with that point, maybe I'll trim it or at the least re-phrase it.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll make sure to fix this stuff in v4 of the doc.

I fired up D1X and a little gabbagabbahey later I see what you mean about the difference between the Fusion cannon and what I was describing. It's not such a huge area-of-effect weapon in Descent as it was in my description.

Probably switch it over to be more like Descent, we'll see what other people say. I forgot how screwy your aim gets in Descent when you're charging the damn thing, though, that's pretty intense.

Fusion also does more damamge the longer you hold the trigger until the point it starts doing damage to your own shields.

The fusion cannon works on the theory that a raw dump of fusion energy from your main engines is being utilized. I'm not sure what the damage to second ratio is. I'm sure someone else can answer that has been messing with D1 and D2.

Also, the fusion shot will carry through and beyond a hit target and can hit another one causing damage. I have no idea what that damage scale is.

I described the Into Cerberon version as being nearly identical to the Doom³ BFG, which also obeys the longer-charge-means-more-damage principle, though it doesn't have the Descent Fusion Cannon or (Half-Life Gaus Gun) "hurt yourself" effect.

HeXetic wrote:Are you certain the fusion cannon is nothing like the BFG from Doom3? In Doom3 you do have to charge it up. Could you be more specific about the differences?

I haven't played Doom3 yet (I probably will eventually), but any gun with the name "BFG" must by definition be an excessively powerful gun. Fusion is not.

D1 fusion (which is "real" fusion), fully charged, does 120 shields damage (60 per side.) It's nowhere close to 1000. It doesn't really have a blast, either. I've never noticed it having one, anyway, and I've played an awful lot of Descent multi.

The interesting characteristic of fusion is that it keeps going after it hits a target. That makes it very effective on groups. It just slices right through them, dealing full damage to everything it hits.

If your framerate is locked (which it should be in D1x) it shouldn't get too hard to hit things when fusion is charging. Once it starts really shaking, that means you've charged it too much.

Duper wrote:The fusion cannon works on the theory that a raw dump of fusion energy from your main engines is being utilized. I'm not sure what the damage to second ratio is. I'm sure someone else can answer that has been messing with D1 and D2.

Also, the fusion shot will carry through and beyond a hit target and can hit another one causing damage. I have no idea what that damage scale is.

Duper, you're correct on the fusion principle. Basically what happens is when the Fusion passes through a target (has a persistent flag) it's damage potential is cut by a third. The second target is destroyed if it has lower than full shields. So on and so forth.

I remember a demo that was recorded to demonstrate the fusion specifically. Filmed by Kiln of all people. Six people lined up one behind the other, and Kiln charged up the fusion to it's maximum. he was able to take out at least three people in one shot.

I never knew fusion damage went down... it doesn't on bots, that's for sure.

remember that the damage increases as the difficulty goes up in multi. I'm not sure in solo. I think that in solo, the bots just get tougher.



Maybe we should get together on KAli and test this. I'll make a level tonight just for this in both D1 and D2. We can try different difficutly levels and different charge times.

Shield points for powerups go down in higher difficulty levels.

Hit indicators are not a good thing. The beauty of Descent is that you have blind spots above and below you, and since the game is fully 3D, it is very possible for someone to ambush you from your blind spots.

I think I'm going to move this over to Multiplayer, it looks like this thread is better for gameplay feedback than coding volunteers.

After talking it over with a team member, we're going to drop the hit-indicators. Originally I was worried about sniping, but I think by making the hit-scan weapons have specific downsides (like the AC having a huge recoil, the hephaestus eating ammo like popcorn, etc.) it'll be manageable. Plus, as iceheart said: "Let them be sniped!"

What do the hard-core phreaks think about changing the way the fusion cannon works? I'm undecided whether to do it the Descent way or to basically make it a mega-missile type thing... I suppose it might be best to just make the mega-missile and make the fusion be "normal", but I don't want to saturate the ammunition pool (the Flamethrower is probably going to switch to be an energy weapon - too much ammo to manage at the moment).

HeXetic wrote:Grendel, I was actually hoping for a slower pace. Mostly I remember playing anarchy in the original Descent as being a minute or two of tension followed by ten or twenty seconds of furious battle. By using deep shadows, I'm hoping to intensify and draw out the "tension" period.

I for one enjoy the dogfight not the hide and seek.

fusion should definately be as close to what it was in d1 as you can possibly make it. definately.

Different people have different opinions... the most challenging part of the game isn't even about shooting at people.

Leave the Fusion as-is. And don't add a BFG type gun please..

Fantastic idea man! I would soo buy Doom3 JUST for this mod if you can pull it through:) I don't know much about game modification, but I offer my help if ya need it

Pugwash wrote:I for one enjoy the dogfight not the hide and seek.

Ideally Into Cerberon would allow for both; hide in the darkness if that's your preference, or flip on the headlights and go hunting instead. The most important part of the Descent dogfight is the 3-D circle-strafing (sphere/cylinder-strafing?) to avoid those slow-moving laser blasts, right? I definitely want to re-create that in Doom³.

The lasers aren't slow on Insane.

HeXetic wrote:Plus, as iceheart said: "Let them be sniped!"

My actual words were "maybe they should just die for not paying enough attention" .

Well I hope YOU and your TEAM stick with this!!!
Good luck and nothing but the best to ya!

Uhh... there's a difference in weapon speeds between difficulty levels? I'm pretty sure there was a damage difference, but not speed...

Sirius wrote:Uhh... there's a difference in weapon speeds between difficulty levels? I'm pretty sure there was a damage difference, but not speed...

My bad, just tested it. The bots are certainly faster.

Good, I was thinking that different laser speeds for different "difficulty levels" would be somewhat hard to accomplish these days - seeing as how most games don't use difficulty settings for MP anymore. It would probably confuse people who aren't old-skool FPSers (and even then...).

'metal' agreed with you guys that the Fusion Cannon shouldn't be a BFG. I'll change it in the v4 requirements to be more like the original Descent version and probably also add in the Mega Missile and, at iceheart's request, the Smart Missile (seekin' plasma balls) as well.

That should about cover it for guns and stuff. There are a few loose ends as far as ammo and gameplay go as well, but those should be easy to clean up for reqs v4. Next step on my part after releasing v4 will be setting up a little website for team co-ordination.

Unfortunately I'm not a C++ coder but this project really sounds interesting. I could help with something if there's something I can help with. :-)

I'd buy Doom3 just to play this mod... best of luck in your endeavors. Will be interesting to see this come alive

Im just skimming cus its late, but here I go:

- D2 was the best of the series, you can use Doom 3's dark and gritty atmosphere to an advantage to carry over the same atmosphere that D1 and D2 had.

- I trust by the last few posts I read that you will do the Fusion right. Dont forget the kickback after the weapon fires, with immense firepower comes difficulty in wielding it!

And thats all. Good luck and I hope you will sucessfully complete this (*Cough* unlike other supposed mods ) Mayby I will help out at a later date when I am not so buisy working 2 jobs while going to school (oy!) Anywho, cheers!

Yep, we're getting "press attention" now


Requirements doc v4 is now available. As always, please read and post your comments.

http://www.chmodoplusr.com/IntoCerberon ... nts_v4.pdf

Among the things changed:

----
--score by kill - deaths by default
--option for no negative scoring when using k-d

--Change wording from "Later, add more ship designs" to "Also develop original ship designs"

--Flares stick to ships for 10s and then become moveable objects that will bounce off players but stick to a wall and remain lit for a further 10s

--Show negative HP total after death indicating by how much the player failed to avoid dying. 0 sp = dead.

--Add energy->shield converter device, standard issue. 2e for 1s, up to a max of 50s and a min of 50e. Operates at the rate of 10 units of shield per second.

--Add support for three kinds of recharging areas in the code: energy, shields, and energy+shields. All recharge areas fill player up to 100 in the appropriate value.

--Remove hit angle detectors

--Change autocannon Descent reference to D2 gauss cannon

--Change spreadfire Doom reference to be Shotgun

--Change Blast Missile Descent reference to D3 impact mortar

--Change fusion to be similar/identical to Descent

--Add note about ships glowing bright red->dark red when hit by flamer. Make flamer damage taper off with distance; 50s/sec at 30ft: more when closer, less when further away. Have flames bounce off walls and other world surfaces (not players).

--Make UV Emitter have smaller lighting area. No change otherwise

--Change blast missile to give affected players the *chance* of steadying their ship.

--Rename Andarky->Deathmatch

--Rescue the Hostage -> tie hostie on a string and bring him home just like bacon.

--Add Smart Missile, Mega Missile
-----


At this point, the team feels we have a reasonably solid view of the future. iceheart has determined an appropriate scale for the ships:

http://3910.doom3reference.com/scale.jpg
http://3910.doom3reference.com/scale_high.jpg
http://3910.doom3reference.com/scale_standing.jpg
http://3910.doom3reference.com/scale_cockpit.jpg

Note that the model in those pictures is the "abandoned" D4 Pyro model and that we will not use that or any other official resource in making the mod.

As well, =NoMercy= has come forward with a few model designs of his own. I am still waiting for Doom3 1.3, however .

The "D4" model is a player made object. It was not made by Parallax or Outrage or Volition.

As far as i know there are no copyrights or anything legally binding on it.

Really great scalling tho. I have always wondered how it would size up to people in a hanger.

thanks!

The size and scale is spot on Hex.

Wow, I'm impressed w/ the enthusiasm and speed ppl are picking the idea up producing results ! That's great !

HeXetic wrote:--Show negative HP total after death indicating by how much the player failed to avoid dying. 0 sp = dead.

Ah -- you can have 0sp in Descent. Means your shields are gone and the slightest further damage (like being hit by a flare or bumping into a wall) will kill you.