DescentBB

Finally an Intelligent statement from the Middle East on how to work towards peace.

Do you think we can pick up the ball and go with it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4563601.stm

Interesting article but one thing.

The report went on: "What Muslims say they want from America is respect, understood as consultation and non-intervention, and development aid in which they, not Americans, define their needs."

Do you believe Bush or any President would give away money and not have a say in where it goes or what it does?

Cuda68-2 wrote:Do you think we can pick up the ball and go with it?

I think we have the ability, but not the political will. I fear too many would look at that as appeasement.

The report went on: "What Muslims say they want from America is respect,

Yet they want money no strings attached. Maybe they should try and apply for a loan from a bank and see how much respect they get. Want respect? Earn it.

woodchip wrote:

The report went on: "What Muslims say they want from America is respect,

Yet they want money no strings attached. Maybe they should try and apply for a loan from a bank and see how much respect they get. Want respect? Earn it.

I cant believe I am sticking up for them but I see there point. Since the late 50's we have held out charity money and asistance for a price. Usually the price is political reform or they must accept the bible as the word of god. Not a smart move considering how proud they are and there strong belief in THERE reliegin. We have treated them as lessor evolved people and idiots and they are tired of it. Untill the fall of the Ottiman Empire people went to there schools for a higher education, they where a world power and they have lost it all in the last 150 years or so.
It appears to me they asking for a dialog without us looking down our noses at them.

If they want us to talk to them equally, they have to throw the slimeball leaders they have to represent their voices back into the gutters where they belong.

Cuda68-2 wrote:Since the late 50's we have held out charity money and asistance for a price. Usually the price is political reform or they must accept the bible as the word of god.

I'm not aware of any "bible" stipulations on charity money.

Just political reform. And we're not even very strict about that -- just look at the Saudis or Egypt! I think the US government gives more aid to each of those countries, per year, than has been spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined (I could be wrong; I may be remembering a 10-year figure or something.) Yet the reforms we've seen out of them are minimal.

The US gives a ton of money to Islamic countries with very few strings attached (don't use it to fund terrorists, make a few token reforms, don't abuse your citizens too badly) and has shed the blood of our own soldiers in order to bring non-oppressive governments to two Islamic countries. But most people in Islamic countries have no idea how much aid they actually get from the US.

It's like I said in the other thread -- regular people in the Muslim world get their information through extremists in the government, on TV, and in their schools. They don't know the US pumps billions of dollars of aid into their countries every year. Some think the US is up to 85% Jewish and basically a zionist country (the reality is, if every Jew in the world moved to the US, we might be 10% Jewish. Right now it's more like 2%.) They'd be easy to win over if they could just simply hear the truth. A free Iraq and a free Afghanistan will go a long way toward assuring that, and democratic rumblings in Egypt, Lebanon, and even Iran will hopefully accellerate the process. To win them over, we only need to shatter the lies they've been taught.

"If they want us to talk to them equally, they have to throw the slimeball leaders they have to represent their voices back into the gutters where they belong. "


Hhahahahahahahahahah

POT KETTLE BLACK

In terms of letting them define their needs, they could create a list and we could pick from their list... I think the article is dead on. We've lost respect in the muslim world, but we still have a chance to gain it back. Unfortunately we don't have anyone diplomatic enough in office to achieve it.

Birdseye wrote:POT KETTLE BLACK

Er, yeah... because of course Bush is just as bad as the Saudi, Egyptian, etc. leadership...

We've lost respect in the muslim world, but we still have a chance to gain it back.

"Lost"? "Gain it back"? What are you talking about?

We never *had* respect in the Muslim world, at least not in the last 57 years. There's no "gaining it back" no matter how much butt we kiss, because the leadership in the Muslim world is almost uniformly extreme and the people in the Muslim world are almost uniformly propagandized by their extremist leadership. Even though we give billions in aid to the Muslim world already, most citizens of those nations don't know it. Even if we meet needs they list off, the citizens won't know it was us because their governments won't tell them.

The only way to get respect from the Muslim world is to let them see us up close and let them hear the truth about us -- and creating non-oppressive governments for them is a darn good way to do it.

"We never *had* respect in the Muslim world"

You're right, to some degree I misspoke. There are, as bash has pointed out, some people in the muslim world who do appreciate america. We never had full respect but as I pointed out this war has increased global hatred of america.

"Er, yeah... because of course Bush is just as bad as the Saudi, Egyptian, etc. leadership"

No, but that's not to say they aren't corrupt scumbag idiots. Most major american politicans are.

Birdseye wrote:as I pointed out this war has increased global hatred of america.

And as I pointed out, no it hasn't. People who hated us before still hate us -- maybe more strongly or more vocally. Except that a lot of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan now love us. That's a net benefit to us...

Keep the deluding yourself...

Birdseye wrote:Keep the deluding yourself...

x2

We obviously live in different realities. In 10 years, we'll see who was right.

come now lothar. even USA's relationships with it's allies are strained, surely you can agree with that.

winners are Iraq and Afghanistan? we'll see. but it's still a net loss, not a net gain.

There's a line between hatred of America and displeasure (there's a better word that I can't think of at the moment). Our Western allies don't like the fact that we're at war. Radical Islamist states hate our existence. Big difference.

roid wrote:come now lothar. even USA's relationships with it's allies are strained, surely you can agree with that.

With some allies, yes. But those relationships weren't exactly in good shape before. They were quiet, but we've never particularly seen eye to eye with France (in particular). There was strain there before, as France has long wished itself to be a counterbalance to the US, they're just more vocal about it now.

On the other hand, America's relationship with other allies -- like Japan and South Korea -- is much improved recently.

winners are Iraq and Afghanistan? we'll see.

We can already see. I only suggest waiting longer because it'll be harder to ignore 10 years down the road.

but it's still a net loss, not a net gain.

Why do you say that?

Europe will come around to see things our way when the realize the threat militant Islam is to them. Many of those nations are now temporarily antagonistic toward us, but certainly don't qualify as "enemies". Iraq and Afghanistan are now our friends rather than our mortal enemies. That's a huge net gain. I'd gladly take a somewhat antagonistic Europe for a friendly Afghanistan, let alone a friendly Iraq and improved relations with much of southeast Asia.

Frankly, I think you guys value a friendly France and a friendly Germany far too much. Those relationships can stand to be strained -- it's not like France or Germany will ever declare war on us, and if we can take out a pair of governments that were de-facto at war with us without provoking any others, we are teh win.

And when you look at the subject at hand... people in the middle east, especially in 5-10 years, will see the way the US operates. They'll see our willingness to take out oppressive governments and not install new oppressive governments in their place. That's worth far more to us than an agreeable Europe is.

The bible thing was a reference to missionary work. Back in the 70's missionarys where causing alot of unrest because in order to recieve there help the needy people had to sit and listen to talks encourging them to reform or join the christian church. In that time period it was more dangerious to be a missionary than a NY or Chicago cop. If I am not mistaken missionarys are now given guidlines on how to approach people with there views because it was seen as if you dont listen we leave {not sure about that though}.

Its no wonder France do not favor us when you consider the influx of Muslims moving in to that country.

US 'could win over Muslim world'???

Not if pictures of their ex-leaders in knickers are released to the press they won't. What a c0ck up.

Flabby Chick wrote: Not if pictures of their ex-leaders in knickers are released to the press they won't. What a c0ck up.

Actually I think Saddies was down.....

roid wrote:winners are Iraq and Afghanistan? we'll see. but it's still a net loss, not a net gain.

Well, who knows. If the US had done nothing and left the regimes alone in Iraq and Afghanistan, how many more terrorists may have been trained in the Taliban sponsored camps. How many more large target attacks may they have been able to carry out. Now that significant portions of their infrastructure have been destroyed or scrambled, one can only speculate as to what they might have had on their hit list, and as to whether they might have carried out an attack successfully.

roid wrote:come now lothar. even USA's relationships with it's allies are strained, surely you can agree with that.

Since when are France, Germany and Russia our allies. They ummm, like ever helped us out in some major endevor like the Brits have? Stop considering the loud three as representing everyone else. Even the Aussie have helped us with the war on terror.
Besides when have our relations with France not been strained? Oh ya...when we pulled their Gaulist Noses off the Nazi grind stone.

USA's relationship with the british and aussies have strained.