DescentBB

The lengthy document spans 10 pages, with 4,294 words and 6 chapters. It focuses on the argument for unanimous Descent recognition, the current gaming industry, and the feelings of this surviving community. I want to know what you guys think. If you approve, we can begin mass exposure. Possibilities include the construction of an official website, postings on every possible webpage, and spreading the word to friends and colleagues. With no more delay, here is the epic.

Download Fahrenheit 360 v1.0 (269 KB)

This is good stuff. Just a few things don't quite fit with how I see this turning out.

Trackball wrote:Funny, I think I remember them discussing politics during the D3 game. All of them are liberals. Arenâ??t they supposed to be completely open-minded? Whoops.

I see what you're getting at here, but I think the liberal comment is unnecessary.

Trackball wrote:The Xbox 360 doesnâ??t matter.

This isn't a good idea, because theoretically we'd be showing this to people who mainly play groundpounders and likely are obsessed with the idea of the x-box 360.

Trackball wrote:Itâ??s pretty pathetic that they could realize that 10 years ago, but not now.

Ouch. That's harsh. Keep in mind graphics are a BIG deal these days. Maybe a softer tone would be more effective.

No offense.
But you quoted descent players that I have never heard of. I know of Lothar, Drakona, and Deadmeat. But who are these other people?

Where are the descent ramblings from the big names of every generation of the game? Itâ??s like an essay based on 6 people.

ummm... where's the Birdseye, nirvana, sickone, xciter, "insert name drop here"?

Where are their paragraphs?

I was like not going to read that.

Use of the term 'ground pounder' never adds weight to an argument... if you don't want to sound like you're on a crusade, 'ground-based' is good enough for anyone.

Sirius wrote:Use of the term 'ground pounder' never adds weight to an argument... if you don't want to sound like you're on a crusade, 'ground-based' is good enough for anyone.

It was a direct quote from the Core Decision site...

TheCope wrote:No offense.
But you quoted descent players that I have never heard of. I know of Lothar, Drakona, and Deadmeat. But who are these other people?

You've never heard of Ixion, Kyouryuu, or Liquid Fire? How odd. Kyouryuu was one of the biggest mappers in the whole community.

TheCope wrote:ummm... where's the Birdseye, nirvana, sickone, xciter, "insert name drop here"?

They're not in it either because they don't care, didn't hear about it, or have left the community. I would have gladly added their responses. The current ones work fine. What could these celebrities tell me that any other Descent fan couldn't?

Liquid Fire wrote:Keep in mind graphics are a BIG deal these days. Maybe a softer tone would be more effective.

I will consider it.

Do you want an honest opinion? The only thing that that document will do is further alienate (and possibly drive away) people who might see Core Decision as something cool and new. Honestly, in order for High Octane to make money on Core Decision it is going to have to be sold as something new a fresh, not the reincarnation of a 10 year old game. Really, I think High Octane's (and the publisher's) best chance is to sell it as something that has the next level of addicting action.... and be sold as a multiplayer game with a single player mode, rather than the other way around. (If it plays anything like descent, it'll be the multiplayer that really keeps people coming back for more.) Honestly, I'd keep the document to make myself happy with, but don't flame the rest of the world with it.

No flame intended here, Trackball. But what is the point of all this? I dont understand what you're trying to prove.

*Edit*

punisher wrote:No flame intended here, Trackball. But what is the point of all this? I dont understand what you're trying to prove.

Trackball wrote:It focuses on the argument for unanimous Descent recognition, the current gaming industry, and the feelings of this surviving community.

I got tired of people ignoring Descent and acting like simple games were more innovative. We still hear people praise the original DOOM for its classic properties. The same is not true for Descent.

I was trying to prove that Descent was more innovative than the shooters 10 years later.

snoopy wrote:Do you want an honest opinion? The only thing that that document will do is further alienate (and possibly drive away) people who might see Core Decision as something cool and new. Honestly, in order for High Octane to make money on Core Decision it is going to have to be sold as something new a fresh, not the reincarnation of a 10 year old game.

So we should censor the truth just to get people to buy the new game? If people wanted new gaming elements, they would'nt be playing Counterstrike.

Counterstrike was extremely popular...

I think it would be safe to say that anyone who didn't participate heavily in Descent 1, 2, or 3 would be looking for something different.

Oh, but I dont think people want that at all, Trackball. I think the majority of people want smooth-running, easy to learn games with incredible eye candy. Descent players are a unique breed. We're not the norm. That's why the majority will never see it our way. Although you're intentions were noble, I just dont see the sense in it all.

Setting all that aside. Now that you've written this "epic", what do you plan to do with it? The internet is a big place. How do you plan to get people's attention and what reactions do you expect from this in the remote chance that you do?

punisher wrote:Setting all that aside. Now that you've written this "epic", what do you plan to do with it? The internet is a big place. How do you plan to get people's attention and what reactions do you expect from this in the remote chance that you do?

Well, if no one in the community supports it, I have little reason to distribute it. I may use it only to strike down the challenging groundpounders who enjoy insulting my website and game choices.

Trackball wrote:I may use it only to strike down the challenging groundpounders who enjoy insulting my website and game choices.

That's what I was afraid of.

You're spending far too much effort on insulting other people's game choices, and on responding to their insults. The negativity really detracts from what could otherwise be a really cool project...

I wholeheartedly agree with Lothar.

I guess Lothar went for the nice version of what I was trying to say.... What you wrote will push people into defensive mode... and when people get defensive, you don't get anywhere, no matter how right you technically are.

It was thanksgiving 1999.

I have no family to speak of so I was hanginâ?? with my friend André (known him since I was 11 years old). We played some ground pounders. They were amazing.

I was used to calling hits to musicians that were in â??I want to get married modeâ?

[quote="TheCope"]It took the actual trip to Chicago LAN to bring me back to reality.

I had a lot of fun. I met some people. I had tiny tacos served by 19-year-old Mexican hot pants. I got a 20-minute shoot out with Scratch (he owned me).

I got to spend a lot of minutes with kufyit. When we stopped for a Chicago hamburger the girl serving it was all over himâ?¦ and she had really pretty eyes.

Try something like that in your â??why descent mattersâ?

GAAAAAG HUUUURL BAARRF

wHåt tH� fü�k was that!!!


Someone give me a napkin. I just lost my lunch from reading that document.

dude ... get a grip and at least get quotes from people who REALLY play this game.. not just BB lurkers with a stick up their @$$ and please delete the link to that POS... utter garbage!

PD nooobness has filled the room!

BUBBALOU wrote:WTF was that!!!

dude ... get a grip and at least get quotes from people who REALLY play this game.. not just BB lurkers with a stick up their @$$ and please delete the link to that POS... utter garbage!

PD nooobness has filled the room!

Hah. Do you even play anymore? Everyone keeps supplying the same complaints over and over. Please direct us to these REAL players you speak of. If they cared, they might have actually bothered to post their answers.

You have been here what less than a year and with a unregged kali serial no less, Trackball 751271 2K 2.613.... I play all the time d1/d2 and d3.. since 1995 and have seen you appear on kali what 3 times in a year...SO STFU. BTW, stick that C/S wannabe rant back in it's box and go back to wence you and it came.

You do not represent this community with that off the wall embarassing pile of trash

Do we really need a flame war, here? Trackball has good intentions for this project. He made something, people didn't agree with it. Fine, let him fix it. This isn't the type of thread I want to see reduced to "I AM 1337! YOU ARE NOOB!"

The vast majority of "real players" are also "realists" and don't waste time on things they view as futile, pointless or irrelevant. That is why there are few responses that make the critics happy.

BUBBALOU wrote:You have been here what less than a year and with a unregged kali serial no less, Trackball 751271 2K 2.613.... I play all the time d1/d2 and d3.. since 1995 and have seen you appear on kali what 3 times in a year...SO STFU. BTW, stick that C/S wannabe rant back in it's box and go back to wence you and it came.

You do not represent this community with that off the wall embarassing pile of trash

I think you mean I've been on the DBB for less than a year. I joined the more civilized Planet Descent years ago. Just because I havn't spent my life on these bulletin boards, doesn't mean I am not a valid Descent fan. The years spent in singleplayer were better than listening to people like you insult and complain.

With everyone in that server idle 90% of the time, your "3 sightings" are obviously quite inaccurate. I havn't been to every revival, but I have sure racked up my share in hours of Descent multiplayer, whether you believe it or not.

What you were doing to other gamers (particularly from the game-specific forums) was as rude as it would be for a Halflife player coming to our boards, having never seriously played Descent, and trying to start debates as to why Halflife was better than Descent. We wouldn't owe him any response other than silence and snooty remarks, and I believe that those that you quoted from other forums likewise owed you only what they gave you.

Also, in the writeup, it seemed as if a lot of space (over one and half pages) was spent satisfying certain needs for revenge against a certain moderator that really didn't have much to do with Descent.

PlanetDescent... Civilized? Right... A crowd of unsure newbies with no unique personality constantly tripping over each other might be more "civil" to each other but it's also stupid and boring.

The DBB has something way better then what PD has, the DBB has many interesting personalities and characters, not just another spin on the generic noob.

Trackball wrote:Just because I havn't spent my life on these bulletin boards, doesn't mean I am not a valid Descent fan.

No, it doesn't. You might be just as much a Descent fan as most of the rest of us. But the attitude you display means you're not a valid representative for us.

If your project is going to be "hey, look at how cool Descent is!" then I'm on board with that. Use my quotes to promote Descent all you want.

But if your project is "hey, you people who don't play Descent, you suck, and your games suck! Descent is better!" take my quotes out, please. Don't associate me with what amounts to a flame against some half-life board moderator who doesn't like Descent. If you want to fight with half-life players, count me out. I don't want to be a part of all this negativity.

What you're doing here isn't "promoting Descent", it's "childishly bickering with half-life players and insulting the Descent players who tell you to knock it off." That's not cool.

Take the half of your project devoted to Descent and keep it. Take the half devoted to insulting half-life players, or quoting them insulting Descent, and throw it away.

I'm also curious what the purpose of the document is. What exactly are you trying to achieve?

Lothar wrote:What you're doing here isn't "promoting Descent", it's "childishly bickering with half-life players and insulting the Descent players who tell you to knock it off." That's not cool.

Best quote in this thread to date.

Seriously Trackball, anyone that has actually been playing the game for years doesn't want to have anything to do with what you just posted, or just flat out doesn't give a rats ass. If you're going to be making pot shots at some moderator on another board, take it there. Don't insult this community by acting like a coward. Quite frankly, nobody is going to take something like this from a newbie seriously. You didn't copy and paste that up to make Descent look cool. You did it as revenge against that moderator.

And before you give me the same crap you just gave Bubbalou earlier:

Started : Mon Aug 10 15:20:57 1998
Connects : 2383
Tot time : 1037:50 (hours:minutes)

And thats only when I actually regged on kali. I had been popping in for atleast a year and a half unregged and playing 15 minutes at a time. I've played on Kahn for a good two or three years before I registered on kali. (Kahn serial# 2981) Needless to say, I've played my fair share of games, and I still try to get atleast one or two games in a night whenever possible. Bubbalou still plays a fair bit as well, so who here is the ignorant one? As far as idling, thats all you ever do apparently. I've yet to see you say one damn thing for the last two or three weeks.

Dude -

I've played Descent since the original demo. I was like 6 years old, and I grew up with the Descent community. And I have to say, in my entire time interacting with the pixels on the screen, I have never seen something so ridiculous.

Grow up, go outside, and relax. It's a game, a dead game, a great game, but in the end it was just a game. Just like any other form of escapism, it takes your mind off the mundane pursuits of life, but writing a veritable novel on it is not only unnecessary - it's unhealthy.

Take the advice of an ex D3 addict, Trackball, and don't invest so much in a game. In my experience one should never let a game be more than a game, but especially not one that has dwindled so much--you're going to find a lot of disappointment. I still pretty much hold the opinion that Descent is the best game of all time, but I don't carry that around like a chip on my shoulder, and it doesn't keep me from playing other games that are much better looking and/or more fun in other ways. Strive in R/L (the returns are much better), play for fun!

I found a lot of the beginning of your document to be interesting, but when you almost get to telling people what they should or shouldn't like...

I have a very negative opinion of Trackball in general, so I will refrain from extensive commentary. I think it's a given that he ignores facts that don't suit his preference, and forwards whatever his agenda may be without practical consideration.

Who is it that said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? I for one, don't expect Trackball to change, given his Track...record.

WarAdvocat wrote:I have a very negative opinion of Trackball in general, so I will refrain from extensive commentary. I think it's a given that he ignores facts that don't suit his preference, and forwards whatever his agenda may be without practical consideration.

What facts were omitted?

MD-2389 wrote: Don't insult this community by acting like a coward. Quite frankly, nobody is going to take something like this from a newbie seriously.

Acting like a coward? I've responded to just about every post in here.

So...Playing since 96 = newbie?

MD-2389 wrote:As far as idling, thats all you ever do apparently. I've yet to see you say one damn thing for the last two or three weeks.

Maybe because I don't leave my computer on sitting in Kali chat 24/7. How can I be idling in Kali chat if I only come to play the occasional classic D1/D2 game?

Many of you gave valid points worth considering. But now, it seems that theres just random insulting and tough claims of apathy.

Trackball wrote:

Lothar wrote: Don't insult this community by acting like a coward. Quite frankly, nobody is going to take something like this from a newbie seriously.

Lothar wrote:As far as idling, thats all you ever do apparently. I've yet to see you say one damn thing for the last two or three weeks.

Those were both MD-bignumber, not me.

Quoted for emphasis:

Lothar wrote:Take the half of your project devoted to Descent and keep it. Take the half devoted to insulting half-life players, or quoting them insulting Descent, and throw it away.

Krom wrote:PlanetDescent... Civilized? Right... A crowd of unsure newbies with no unique personality constantly tripping over each other might be more "civil" to each other but it's also stupid and boring.

The DBB has something way better then what PD has, the DBB has many interesting personalities and characters, not just another spin on the generic noob.

Not all of us at PD are newbies, you know. We've got our share of old-timers, unless you consider people like Thunderbird, Inquisitor, Asrale, Checkor, or Descenterace to be "n00bs with no personality." We provide a much more welcoming atmosphere to new players than here; without these people, this game would have died years ago. I won't deny that the DBB is a very unique community, but it's also a very close-knit one; I posted at PD for a year or two before I overcame enough of my intimidation to join here. Without PD, this community wouldn't have much in the way of file-hosting, either.

Enough with the ranting. Trackball, I was initially very much in favor of this project; I thought it would be a great way to get more people interested in this game. What you've come up with, however, gave me the wrong vibe; it's far too combative and accusatory. It'll drive off far more people than it could ever attract. The way to get people to try out the Descent series is to show them it in action (something like Rake's amazing video) and to include quotes by people describing what makes Descent so great. Your method won't accomplish anything useful.

I can't believe you people.

You all ask what the purpose of the document is. It's clear from reading it, so obvious it's untrue. Many times when the Descent series tries to be promoted, it is put down as a failure and fundementally a bad game. This puts forward a claim and an argument for Descent being a truly great game that many people have definitely enjoyed over the years. Trackball takes the time to try and collect some thoughts and opinions from various sources. He does not simply rant on abnout his own (perhaps) negative thoughts and feelings towards other game types. The fact that he has bothered to go around and collect various quotes shows that he is determined to support his argument.

What you are all doing is simply shouting him down because it's not what you want to hear. You even complain when your name or a "really big and well known" player name isn't mentioned. Well known means loud, not necessarily a good intentioned old skool r0x0r like the picture you build of him/her. What does it matter which players are chosen to quote from, they've all played the same games. Get that into your heads.

Trackball has broken up his case into 6 main arguments and opinions. He uses a combination of review quotes, quotes from individuals and comparision of statistics and other data. Yet again, I stress, this is not blind rambling. He shows us the innovation of the Descent series in comparision to Half Life, even giving credit where credit is due showing his opinions on both sides..

Trackball wrote:I was obsessed with Half Life at one point too.

If I was to round this up in one go, I would ask why can't you see the meaning and the effort and the thought placed into this work. Would you rather it didn't exist? Can you put something together better than this? Would you have the motivation? You have all shouted this down and given it no recognition. I'm not asking everything to love and worthship it. It does leave room for improvement. But when it comes down to it you've all blindly flamed Trackball down to a crisp. Stop being a bunch of whining forum-potatoes and actually give credit where it's due. If you don't like it, fine. But be constructive in your criticism and not destructive..

It's appauling how you have treated Trackball. Some community you all think you are now.

The problem with Trackball's effort is that he spends almost half of it ragging on people. His entire section #3, which spans 4 pages (of 10.5 total) is completely unnecessary, and detracts from the project. He gives two negative anti-Descent quotes prominence at the very start of the document. He's turned what could be a nice compilation of Descent memories and thoughts on Descent into a big flame. That's simply not cool.

Could you make something similar 'cool'?

So what if he wants to rag at people. It's his argument, let him give his opinions and then justify them. I do not however condone unjustified opinions and nonesense.

We don't all have the most perfect English writing skills in the world, and most of all we don't all have perfect skills in putting something like this together.

I'm just very annoyed with the response he has been given. Very little has been constructive, most of it has been insulting (@Bubba) and very little of the good points have been underlined.

You give no credit.

Robo wrote:So what if he wants to rag at people. It's his argument, let him give his opinions and then justify them. I do not however condone unjustified opinions and nonesense.

What we are saying is that he's making this as a respresentation of descent, and even worse, core decision, not a representation of himself. First of all, I think he would act to reduce Core Decision sales by mass publishing this, because High Octane has to cater at least to some degree to the people that he is flaming. So, my first reccomendation, take all references to Core Decision out of it. (If I where Zach I would be riding you to get the name of my game out of it.) Secondly, this article isn't going to suddenly revitalize Descent online gaming- the game is far too old and the community is far too small to really change the fact that very few people regularly play anymore. Maybe it would feed Track's superiority complex, but it won't really accomplish anything else. So, give it up Trackball, Descent is a dying horse... and the only thing that will revitalize it will be a sequel. core Decision is the closest thing we have to a sequal, so try not to nerf its potential by turning people off to it before they even give it a chance.

Robo wrote:Could you make something similar 'cool'?

Irrelevant. I'm not *trying* to make something of that sort.

So what if he wants to rag at people. It's his argument...

Which he's presented here, presumably in order to gain our approval and/or praise, and which he's used our contributions for.

(Do you seriously not realize the irony in criticizing people here for insulting him while defending his right to insult others?)

I'm just very annoyed with the response he has been given. Very little has been constructive, most of it has been insulting (@Bubba)

Start reading the thread from the start. After Trackball's initial post, there were constructive responses by:
- Liquid Fire (suggesting certain comments were harsh/unnecessary and should be modified)
- Cops (suggesting more known players should be interviewed)
- Sirius (suggesting "ground pounder" is bad terminology)
[interlude: Trackball responds]
- snoopy (suggests this will alienate people)

At this point, Trackball explains that he was doing this to "prove" to people that Descent was innovative. Two posts later, he says he "may use it only to strike down the challenging groundpounders who enjoy insulting my website and game choices."

A couple posts later, Bubbalou got involved and started insulting Trackball, and they've gone back and forth. WarAdvocat also insulted Trackball, but nobody else has. All of the rest of the commentary here has been of the form "you should chill out and quit insulting people."

I don't see how you could have read this thread and thought "most" of the commentary has been insulting. Aside from Bubbalou and WarAdvocat, NONE of the commentary has been insulting. And I don't see how you could think "very little" has been constructive. Several of us have given the constructive criticism that "you should chill out and quit insulting people."

very little of the good points have been underlined.

The negativity so strongly detracts from the project that whatever good points it might have can't really be looked at. He needs to ditch section 3 and the rest of the negativity, and get back to us.

Many of us have said this would be pretty cool if there weren't so many insults. We give him that much credit -- but as long as he's completely unresponsive, and essentially treats this as something he can use to smack down people in arguments instead of as a genuinely cool Descent promotion, I can't give him any more credit. I simply can't respect him for a project that's this negative.

He's entitled to be as negative as he wants, and we're entitled to criticize him for it. If he wants our respect, he needs to listen -- and, in particular, if he wants my respect, he needs to either take out my quotes or cut the negativity. I don't want my quotes to be in that document as it currently stands. I view it as a sign of disrespect that, thus far, he hasn't done one or the other.

Lothar wrote:Many of us have said this would be pretty cool if there weren't so many insults. We give him that much credit -- but as long as he's completely unresponsive, and essentially treats this as something he can use to smack down people in arguments instead of as a genuinely cool Descent promotion, I can't give him any more credit. I simply can't respect him for a project that's this negative.

He's entitled to be as negative as he wants, and we're entitled to criticize him for it. If he wants our respect, he needs to listen -- and, in particular, if he wants my respect, he needs to either take out my quotes or cut the negativity. I don't want my quotes to be in that document as it currently stands. I view it as a sign of disrespect that, thus far, he hasn't done one or the other.

If thats the way that you feel, point taken. I'm open to argument and opinion. Fair enough.