DescentBB

This is directed at Bash and Barry. I would personally rather it didn't turn into a huge discussion, but I leave it at that.

Why fight if and when you're in the wrong? I just wonder if there's something to your argument that I haven't considered, and that doesn't stem from the disrespect for authority that seems so prevelant in this world.

Beating a speeding ticket has a long, proud history in America and I enjoy keeping the tradition alive. Mostly it started because I found cops far too rude and full of themselves (public servants, my butt), and many traffic laws merely a cover for local revenue generation.

The whole *speed trap* thing should be outlawed. We are not far from a time when our cars will have constant monitoring via GPS, obstensibly for safety and rescue, but it won't be long before your car will be reporting you to the police and you'll be getting tickets in the mail for everything from speeding to rolling stops to playing your stereo too loud. Fighting it ALWAYS is the only way to beat back the creep of Big Brother.

Speed is a subjective matter, relative to the driver's skill and his equipment's performance. I never drive beyond my or my car's ability or in an unsafe manner toward others but I do try to enjoy myself. IMO it's a victimless crime.

What makes it *wrong* anyway? Wrong is speed limits based on heavily loaded Winnebagos as a lowest common denominator. If we all drove Ferraris don't you suppose the limits would be much higher? Well, I don't drive a Winnebago so I don't particularly heed limits based on what's a prudent speed for keeping one safely on the road through a curve.

Don't misunderstand me, though, I'm not some rapid speeder screaming around the local elementary school. I choose my times and my roads carefully. I drive a roadster and live in a state with some of the funnest and most beautiful roads in America. Sometimes one must heed the call.

Note: Good thing I didn't post my tips on beating DUIs, huh? j/k

and many traffic laws merely a cover for local revenue generation.

Where I live, there was just a massive lowering of all the speed limits by 5mph. It wasn't voted on, it was just done. I can only figure that this was the reason.

http://www.motorists.org/issues/tickets ... ystem.html

Gives a good overview of some of the conflicts of interest inherent in our traffic law systems. There's also alot of information about speed limits.

I have yet to get a speeding ticket, but at least I try to be smart about it if im going to go over the limit. I wont go fast in a residential neighborhood, under poor visibility, bad weather, or heavy traffic, but if its country road and theres nobody else on it then there is no reason to go 40 mph if the visibility is far and you are not driving a 2-ton car with oily breaks. You also have to be safe about it, if you are going to go fast, KEEP YOUR FSKING DISTANCE to increase your stopping distance!

Typically around here you have speed traps of 45, 40, or even 35 when the actual speed should be 50 or higher. You are probably wondering why I should judge that a stretch of road should be posted 50 instead of the lower speeed limits. Its because in the next town in the same style neighborhood the posted speed limit is 50!

Speeding tickets are nothing more than revenue generation as Bash stated, that and the "Click it or Ticket" programs where rather than actually teaching driving skills and rulls of the road they harrass their citezens. Its a free for all at a 4-way stop sign here because people dont know the basic procedures of who goes first and when! But hey, as long as you are strapped in its A-OK! But this last statement about seatbelts is discussion for another thread, so if you want to talk about seat belts then do it in another thread. [spoiler]Given the trends and attitudes of this board im sure someone will discuss it in this thread anyway and threadcrap.[/spoiler]

I guess the point im trying to make with the last paragraph is that if they were really concerned with safety they would give drivers better education about driving and safety. Lowering the speed limit does not reduce accedents, it actually creates more because it increases confusion compounded by the lack of education like what to do when you come to a fsking 4 way stop sign!

www.motorists.org wrote:When you begin to grasp the full magnitude of the public and private interests that depend on ripping off motorists through traffic tickets, you begin to understand why this unethical system continues to expand every year.

So we let the people who are breaking the law in the first place define "ethical"? That's not sound.

They can't ticket you if you obey the speed limits.

It is far less ethical/sound to let the people who stand to gain financially define what is against the law and how much to levy for violations. That sort of arrangement seems much more at home in corrupt third-world dictatorships than in a democratic society supposedly infused with checks and balances. In no other area of our legal code will you find such a conflict of interest allowed.

Here's another good read from that site taken verbatim from the Washington State DoT:

http://www.motorists.org/issues/speed/speedQA.html

The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal.

So, if I am careful and I am competent but I am driving faster than the posted speed limit, should I be considered a law breaker? Anyway, read the whole thing. I thought it was quite revealing about human nature regarding safe driving and what considerations go into setting speed limits and how changing the limits affect (or not) the way in which the average competent driver behaves.

Another great quote:

Research and experience have shown that effective speed limits are those that the majority of motorists naturally drive, and that raising and lowering speed limits doesn't substantially influence that speed.

What it will do, though, is make currently-legal and safe driving behavior illegal and subject to fine. While having little effect on traffic safety it will enable the police to cull from a suddenly much larger herd of *violators* at their discretion.

Thorne,
If I am in the wrong, I will pay.

Too many times I have been pulled over and harrassed for no reason. Believe it or not, I don't speed! I frequently get honked at or passed followed by a dirty look because the people behind me are not happy with my choice to obey the speed law.


I was pulled over, literally yanked out of my car and frisked with my hands behind my back while this homo crunched my nut-sack. He called me a punk and asked me if I was on my way to do a drive-by shooting.
Know what he pulled me over for? I don't.. no ticket, no warning, no nothing! I was on my way to the store to get my pregnant wife some asprin.

I was again yanked out of my car in front of my daughters school and frisked. Another car came skidding to a stop with his lights and siren going while cop #1 grabbed my wallet, threw *all* of its contents onto the ground, got back in his car and left me standing on the side of the road with my 6 year old little girl crying in the car and me picking up his mess. No ticket, no warning, no explaination.

I've been stopped at "check-points" and given a sobriety test while two cops went through my belongings without consent. I don't drink...at all.
I can continue, but I think you get the point. I used to carry a small tape recorder in my car because I was tired of being harrassed. Now, I just don't drive much.

On my way home from my parents house with my wife and two children, we stopped at a station to get some fuel. While I was pumping gas a cop came by and asked me where I was coming from.. I told him.. he asked me where I was going..I told him. He then tells me to go straight home and that if he see's me out and about again, he'll take me to jail... huh?

Do you know how humiliating it is to have people call you and ask what happened? " I saw you on the side of the road and the cops had you sprawled out".
I live in a small town and everyone knows me, or, knows who I am because of my business.

In general I don't have disrespect for authority.
I'll share with you and the rest of the DBB why I'm very careful what to say and why I know how to excercise my rights.

When I was 17 my parents were on the verge of splitting up. Mom was going through the "change in life" and on some hormone medication. My father, who is very, very non-confrontational called the police on her one time because she was throwing things around the house. My father and I just came back from working on the A/C outside of our house in 100+ degree weather. My father, who drinks less than a 6 pack of beer in a 2-3 month time period sat down at the table and opened a beer, the first beer he had opened that day while he waited for the police to come. The police show up at the door and immediatly walk over to my father who was sitting at the table with the beer in front of him(It was still almost full). The police(male/female) walked in and asked what was the matter. My father told them that everything was fine now and that my mom, who had just went to lay down, was really upset and throwing things around the house. The police asked my father how much he had to drink, he told them this was his first beer and he just opened it. The female officer asked again in a really condescending tone " How much have you had to drink today".. He paused for a second and said, "I just told you.. this is my first beer" as he picked the beer up off the table and showed them that it was still almost full and sat the bottle back down on the table. The female officer told him to stand up, he replied with "stand up?".. She said, " I told you to stand up".. so he started standing up like she asked. The male officer grabbed him by the back of the hair and literally slammed him face onto our ceramic tile, cracking his head open. They took him to jail....
My uncle and I went to get him ouit of jail about an hour later(might have been a bit longer, the whole situation was weird and time was distorted) and we took him to the hospitol for 5 stitches.

Fast forward about a week-

Nobody knew why he was arrested and taken to jail so we obtained a copy of the police report. It stated that he was intoxicated, threw a beer bottle at the officers, called them names, put up a fight and cursed them.

He was charged with:
Resisting arrest-
Battery on a police officer-
Drunk in public-
Domestic violence-
and a few other small charges.

Fast foward about 6 months:
it cost him close to 2k to hire a lawyer to have it plea bargined down to disturbing the peace.

For what? I was there and watched the whole thing...None of what the police report said happened.
He did curse them, though.. I think he said " Oh sh*t, what the eff are you guys doing?" after his head hit the floor at roughly 120 mph.
(I'm actually getting steamed while I'm typing this out)

But, somehow, through all of that( and more), I still am able to be respectful to the police. Don't think for a second that I will roll over and take whatever they feel their badge allows them to dish out, though. I know my rights and have no problem asserting them whenever I feel the need. I guess asserting my rights is my way of letting them know that they're not going to get over on me. They use these manipulative little phrases to get consent or admission of guilt and if you don't know your rights you could be railroaded. I will do exactly as required of me by law, no more, no less.

How is that disrespectful?

Sorry, missed this in the other thread, Thorne.

An objective question: why shouldn't you consent to having your car searched?

Thorne,
I witnessed you speeding, that also means you must have contraband on your person or in your vehicle.
You broke one law(according to me) prove to me you're not breaking others. Give me a reason to trust you by allowing me to look at your private things you're carrying which have nothing to do with why I stopped you.

There was a post of the THR forums about consent and it was pretty much officer vs. citizen.
The highlights-

An officer posted:

Say you are having an affair and you have naked pictures of your girlfriend in your briefcase. As you walk in the door, your wife confronts you and ask if you are having an affair. You will probably say no.
Then she looks at you and says. What do you have in your briefcase? Do you have any naked pictures of her in there? Now at this point, you have the right to refuse to talk to her any more, just as with the police, but do you think she is going to have her suspicions resolved and is going to resume preparing dinner if you do?
So, you say no, there are no naked pictures of your girlfriend in your briefcase. And, she says, do you mind if I look?
So, you say no, she can't search it. Well, do you think your problems are over? No, not hardly.
That's a good example of what happens when the police talk to a criminal who has something going on, and something to hide, at that minute.

A citizen:

OK, so what if YOU had some nekkid pictures of YOUR wife in your briefcase and I walked up and accused YOU of having nekkid pictures of MY wife in there?

If you got nothing to hide, why not let me look?

Privacy? Principle? I cannot imagine that somebody hasn't asked you this before when you use your slick little example.

While the example isn't perfect, it's enough to get both points across. The citizens example is exactly why I never consent to search through my private belongings. Because I carry naked pictures of my wife.

if i'm ever asked for a search with nothing on me, there is no question I would still refuse. I see my friends, family, and co-workers constantly harassed by police.

mexican gardners who drive posted speed limits, yet get pulled over every week when they work in rich neighborhoods. No priors. Current plates.

There is an attack on our 4th amenment rights (Patriot Act and Police) which the police have been enroaching on for years. As citizens it is our duty to (IMO) stop cops from overstepping their bounds. Even if I had nothing and a cop unlawfully searched my car, I'd press charges.

I'm lucky, I look the part of the all american white boy. Shawn you're bigger and with that bald head look tougher. It's a total image thing. I've been pulled over once while smoking a joint (put out, lit clove) and another after hotboxing a car (lit clove) and neither time did the cop suspect a thing. They're dumb, and appearance is everything. I'm sure the car smelled a bit of weed, but with a half smoked (I have a safety clove broken in half for this situation) clove going, it really looks the part as if the weird smell in the car is from the weird thing I am *currently* smoking. The first time I had less than 20 seconds from lights flashing till pulled over to cover up, and oddly I had the least grief. The second time was in the new area I moved into just now, and I had to prolong pulling over because I couldn't find a lighter in the car to light the clove even though I had just smoked (ha, ha). I fooled the cop anyway, and even passed the 'drunk' tests when I was asked to get out of the car. He seemed irked that he didn't have anything on me and let me go. I think I really just look harmless. It's all image. If I had dreadlocks and hippie stuff in my car that car would have been searched for sure. No question about it, my image and the cloves saved my ass.

Shawn you're bigger and with that bald head look tougher.

Profiling is illegal.

Besides, I'm harmless.

I take back the criminal remark, Barry. If I had all that stuff happen to me... so help me, I'd be a vigilante. It makes me angry to hear that.

I guess the police are just different around this relatively small town. Police around here are the good guys, for the most part. Our neighboring city of South Bend is a different story, from what I've heard. Officers there sound a lot like what you're describing. One verbally threatened my dad and his friend, and all my dad did was peer at the squad car as they walked along, wondering if there was anyone in it. I guess it's a result of the crap they have to deal with on a daily basis. There's absolutely no excuse, though.

It must suck to live in a place where the authorities aren't the good guys. I'm glad you're moving out'a there.

wow, fusion pimp that is an amazing story.
carry on. carry on.

Roid,
it really isn't an amazing story. The police are people too and as much as we like to think they hold themselves to higher standards, some don't.
I can somewhat understand their fear/frustration of/with the public since they are considered the enemy by many. I have quite a few( is 4 quite a few?) cops that are friends and they tell me stories of how they are treated by the public. They say that once you become a cop, it changes your whole outlook on life. It turns everything you think about into "us vs.them".Unfortunately, their "us vs.them" leads them to treat every public encounter the same based on similar situations they've delt with in the past... which means that the civilian who is treated like a common criminal now takes the same stance- "us vs.them".
My friends tell me that they are forced to treat the public that way, it's a matter of life and death. (Hmmm, I wonder how threatening they viewed my wallet and personal papers?) They tell me that the only people they can trust is other cops. My question is, do they trust other cops because they feel that only other cops are morally trustworthy, or, because other cops will back-up their false police reports,manipulated consents and confessions? Irony.
I'm sure there are good cops, but it's really difficult to believe when you've been bitten time and time again by the same animal that's sworn to protect you.


Thorne,
Vigilante? lol..I'm really not concerned with other peoples. I just want to be left alone.
You're right, though.. the police are no longer the good guys and I'm not sure why. Is it their behavior that created that image? Or, has society become so terrible that we've forced that image onto them?

and, in case you're wondering- I've never been into any trouble. I've received 3 tickets in 20 years of driving, two my first year and one in '93. All three I was guilty of and didn't fight any of them.

Just remembered, I did receive a citation about 5 years ago where an officer said I was doing 40 in a 25. The only problem was it was bumper to bumper traffic and it was literally impossible to drive over 10(unless I drove on the shoulder). I went to court with photos diagrams, etc..the cop never showed up and it was thrown out.He knew it was bogus and that he stood no chance of winning. My friends told me beforehand that he wouldn't show because he knew he would lose the case.

They say that once you become a cop, it changes your whole outlook on life. It turns everything you think about into "us vs.them".

This is the EXACT problem with our police force. They have a totally backward mentality. In America I avoid the police because I feel like they are looking at me with suspicion to find something wrong, not looking at me thinking 'how can I help?'

When I was in Poland I knew no polish and the police were so helpful, people drunk on the street were helped up by police, brought on to the right bus, etc. The police were often seen as helpers, people who do good things... obviously every country has some corrupt police, but I think the mentality of police in the US is totally wrong.

the police are no longer the good guys and I'm not sure why

You just told us. They view it as us vs. them. That is SO FAR OFF it is rediculous. They are supposed to be protecting and SERVING the public. What a crock of ★■◆●.

And people like Bash love expanding their 4th amendment powers. F-ing rediculous.

bash wrote:Beating a speeding ticket has a long, proud history in America and I enjoy keeping the tradition alive.

Let me see if I have this straight. You were speeding. You know it and the cop knows it. You got busted. You are going to tell the court that you weren't speeding so you can get out of the ticket.

In other words, you are going to lie to the court. Isn't that what Clinton was impeached for?

Quote:
the police are no longer the good guys and I'm not sure why


You just told us. They view it as us vs. them. That is SO FAR OFF it is rediculous. They are supposed to be protecting and SERVING the public. What a crock of ****.

Let me be more specific-
I'm not sure why it has to be us vs them.
It boils down to this:
The citizen views the police and the criminals as being on the same side of the fence.
The police view the citizens and criminals as being on the same side of the fence.
To hear the police say that they have to treat every citizen the same because it's a matter of life and death is no different than the citizen saying all cops are crooked and out to get them.I'm trying to find the common thread that forces both sides to believe that the other is "the bad guy".

Serve and protect? C'mon, it's to serve only their best interests/superiors and protect each other. Why would the police want to protect us when they view us as "the bad guy". The only thing I can think of is that the police are a revenue generator and a control mechanism.

it's in the cops court to change things. The public can't do anything about it, really. I mean I give every cop a chance, but they still pull this crap.

Police attitudes need to change. It's just plain sad.

for example, I showed up for my first speeding ticket at age 17 in front of the judge I argued my case, and the cop FLAT OUT LIED and claimed I was weaving through multiple lanes when he pulled me over. I was speeding, but I was NOT weaving at all, actually I hadn't even changed lanes for half an hour!

Cops need to stop lying and attacking citizens. Its rediculous.

Birdseye wrote:.. and claimed I was weaving through multiple lanes when he pulled me over. I was speeding, but I was NOT weaving at all ...

Are ya sure, Birds. Maybe ya OD'd on the cloves that night, hmmm????

I think this problem is akin to our politician woes. It takes a certain kind of person to live the life of a politician. Anyone that makes less then 50k a year is out. Anyone that can't bull★■◆● is out completely. Anyone with a serious criminal background is out. Anyone too radical is out.

The same is true for police officers. It takes a certain kind of person to want to become a cop. Someone that is willing to live at the cop salary, and has no fear-of-confrontation issues. In fact, the job probably feeds most on the crowd that loves to be confrontational and authoritative. This is the problem.

I suppose that, same as politicians, the people who are willing and want to be our police officers, probably arenâ??t always the ideal candidates for the job.

"give a bully a gun"
is the expression that comes to mind when i think of cops.
they are barking up the wrong archetype, and should be doing something to change their image.

i do however like cops who are active in trying to lobby the system to repeal dumb laws. eg: cops against the drug war. coz it shows they are doing something about it instead of saying "well... i gotta arrest you for that, i don't want to but i have to".

I wasn't doing drugs back then.

Gooberman wrote:

and many traffic laws merely a cover for local revenue generation.

Where I live, there was just a massive lowering of all the speed limits by 5mph. It wasn't voted on, it was just done. I can only figure that this was the reason.

Dude, where I live they extended the 45MPH speed limit five miles because the city extended the border. Previously it was 55. Keep in mind that this is a two-lane split state highway. There is hardly anything worth slowing down for, for a good seven miles between where I live, and the city. There is no logical reason for reducing the speed limit 10MPH. (limit drops just after you cross the tipton-shelby county line. note: Memphis lies in Shelby county, and Tipton is the county directly above.) Its nothing but a 5 mile speedtrap. Sad thing is, theres a stretch of road a couple miles past where I live where the speed limit is 40 - 45, but there is NO police traffic so everyone does what they please. I haven't seen a single squadcar travel that road in six years. The speed limit has never changed on that road, but nobody cares. To me, that would be a logical place to start laying a "speedtrap", but instead they just slapped a 45MPH sign on HWY51 for no good reason and wonder why people give the cops ★■◆● over it.

There is a stretch of HW17 that's like that. Most of 17 is very treacherous and the 50MPH speed limit is often generous with many curves being 40mph max for safety. However, once you get beyond the curves it's just like another big open highway, except for 7-8 unneccessary miles it is still 50. Everyone drives it 70, great speed trap.

we had one of those "roadside safety" checks here last saturday night. they pulled everyone off the road, checked the IDs, insurance, just a cover to see who was drinking and who wasn't. there had to have been 20 cops at this place, i wondered, where there more on duty? or where they all here? it's stupid, i hate it, speeding tickets are just a joke, reckless driving is one thing, but speeding, jsut another way for a city to make money. i hate them, i need to live in tahiti or something.

In Fargo theyve started doing what they call "Sobriety checkpoints" on thursday, friday and saturday nights. Theyre at random locations, always near bars. Everyone gets pulled over and tested for alchohol.

I believe in strict enforcement against DUI, but IMO, subjecting everyone to what is a search with absolutely no probable cause other than they decided to drive through X intersection is a violation of our rights. If they wanna step up patrols around bars around closing time, thats ok, and probably a good idea, but instead theyve decided on a method that violates our personal liberties and freedoms, and by simply allowing them to do crap like this, it invites them to do more invasive things for the sake of "safety", when its money and power theyre after, not the safety of the people.

Am I being paranoid? Perhaps, but with the government we have lately, paranoia may be a good thing.

Any injustice and overgrab of power by the government, from a speeding ticket given in a speed trap to the injustices of the patriot act, it is our duty as citizens to fight the government on these issues and stop them from taking our money, power, freedom and privacy.

The cops have way too much power in this country, thats demonstrated quite clearly by a lot of the stories already in this thread.

Chip away at the small stuff, like speeding tickets and harrassment by the cops, and erventually the big stuff will be within reach as well.