DescentBB

i think this is what's generally referred to when people talk about the crazy christian right.

UTAH - the church of the Later Day Saints (LDS) otherwise known as Mormons. i'd heard before how this religion has it's home in Utah, but that's becides the point. what i'd like to bring attention to is the fucked up Utah Rave Bust that Skyman brought up in the cafe.
the official centralised website for the recent (something like 5 days ago) incident is at http://www.music-versus-guns.org if you missed it - truly horrifying stuff.

i now wonder if this is simply what happens when you mix religion (christianity) and government (or in this case - law).

i was reading through the comments for this article covering it and noted a lot of people with views that this whole incident is really caused by the LDS church's cultural fingers in Utah's law enforcement and government.

it's well known to me that the Hedonistic Party scene and drug scene's main arch-enemy is the authoritarian Christian right and their one-size-fits-all Puritan ethics that they seem to want to impose onto everyone instead of letting ppl do (or don't do) what they want.
Their neverending quest to subjugate the Pagans. i wish they'd just drop it and get with the 21st century damnit - LIBERTY FOR ALL (that means liberalism all you conservative christian fanatic rightwing authoritarian ppl).



here are some of the comments ppl left for that article regarding LDS.


http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 207#189207

Mark Harmon - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 11:25 AM

Anonymous wrote:

Matt Damon wrote: I see the LDS are behaving as the Taliban again. The Utah county swat team, et al make the Klu Klux Klan of the 20's and 30's look like high tea society. This was one of two things. Most likely, an LDS goon squad making sure that kids don't listen to live music and dance, using a 5% criminal activity factor as an excuse. And possible, a paramilitary training operation to get the militarized local police accustomed to abusing unarmed citizens.

Is it really necessary to put 90 combat arrayed military style personnel carrying loaded fully automatic weapons against 300 children at a dance? I don't think so. The relative handful that were using illegal substances could have been taken care of without even disturbing the remaining 95% of the people. That is, apparently, not what was desired. If you go to a dance in Utah, the LDS goon squads will terrorize you. The video is plan. A lot of the police personnel were abusing and mistreating children under color of authority. When there are so many legitimate needs for law enforcement to take care of, this kind of waste of resources so a few can feel as though they have enhanced their manhood while protecting
LDS "morality", is disgraceful.
icon_question.gif icon_question.gif

Sounds to me that you choose to "smoke" the issue with everything but the truth. You want to be called adults when it is convenient but when it makes others seems oppressive you want to be called "children". You also need to take a stats class to get an accurate % of who was doing what. Time to own up, stand up and grow up.

Wow! Are you confused. I am a Viet Nam veteran, 62 years old. I have seen this behavior before (Chicago Republican Convention, 1968, for instance.) I am not LDS. I recognize tyranny when I see it. I was not at the rave, don't use illegal drugs, alcohol or tobacco. That does not mean I cannot recognize the rights of others to use legal drugs, and for the vast majority at a gathering, the right to gather. These "police" are LDS enforcers via terrorist tactics. All illegal activities at this gathering could have been taken care of without shutting down this business enterprise, threatening people with loaded assault rifles, dogs and tear gas. This was a terrorist activity by a bunch of out of control cowboys satisfying their own lust for violence, against unarmed people, of course. I suspect that, like Al Quiada, if these people came up against real patriotic American soldiers, they would be easily defeated.

http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 187#189187

Guest - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 10:59 AM

Guest wrote:I appreciate Sheriff Tracy and the officers involved. I don't care if they did rough up the crowd - don't bring your dope to Utah County if you don't like it. It is amazing that these punks cry foul but Sheriff Tracy has the most daming evidence: all the confiscated drugs, guns, counterfeit money, and the overdosed girl.

Funny how these "kids" fail to mention that in the rave website it does not give the location of the rave until just two hours before the event. Hmm wonder why? Maybe because they know what goes on there and they don't want the cops to come? I am glad Sheriff Tracy has taken this approach I just hope all loser dopers will stay out of Utah County. Keep up the good work cops.

Ohh I forgot to mention, one of the loser drugies said that the cops "treated them like criminals." LOL duh YOU ARE criminals. LOL

Sheriff Tracy is a pompous, egotistical man who needs to learn the facts before spending a bunch of taxdollars beating up on very nice people. Most of your "loser dopers" in utah county are your mormon housewives who have too many kids and want to lose weight so they turn too meth to stay up and lose some pounds. Most people who go to "raves" are people who want to dance and have a good time. There will always be those "bad seeds." They are even in your church picnics and family gatherings. As for eveidence, You don't think it's odd that it was just "a handful" of drugs last night and suddenly this morning it's "bags and bags" of ecstasy. Hmmmm that's funny... Overdosed people DO NOT get "treated at the scene" and released. I watched my best friend OD and she was in the hospital all night long. You don't think that any weapons, counterfeit money, and drugs get into the church dances that get put on every once in awhile? Maybe we should get good ol Sheriff Tracy to raid one of those and find out. Betcha a grand you find paraphanelia and drugs. Think on that one for awhile. Whats that fancy scripture phrase " Judge not lest ye be judged?"

http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 195#189195

Guest - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 11:10 AM
Is this really surprising from a state run by a bunch of militaristic religious nutjobs in a country run by a bunch of militaristic religious nutjobs?

http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 263#189263

Guest - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 12:28 PM

Anonymous wrote:That's a lot of words from someone who doesn't know much. Big hat, no horse. This "raid" was NOT commissioned, sanctioned, or in any way affiliated with the "mormon" church. Get a clue idiot!

This sort of militaristic activity isn't run directly by the LDS organization. It is instead run by the LDS members who control and populate the police force and have the full support and encouragement of the church. Essentially the police department is doing the church's dirtywork.

http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 267#189267

Quietly_Anxious - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 12:34 PM

Anonymous wrote:none of us want a cop around until we need one, then they can't get there fast enough. now that's irony.

None of us want a cop around that cannot tell right from wrong.

The whole premise of deciding to break up the whole group over the activities of a very small percentage of the group is wrong. Dead wrong and the police are just downright ignorant and prejudiced and fearful of anyone or anything different from their own upbringing/experience.

What I find in Utah is that being Pre-judging, basing opinion and actions upon fallacious premises is the rule, not the exception.

So many Utahans seem to think being born and raised in Utah is their ticket to heaven (at the very least the only ticket to being "acceptable") and don't even try to think outside of their tiny box.

Talk to a police officer, listen to their own words. They don't know the difference between lawful law enforcement, and the abuse of ordinary citizens. Anything goes for them if they can find a tangential line to some law they think may be broken by someone.

We do want the protection of the police, they seldom give it. They most often give abuse, don't care, won't see another viewpoint. Uthans in general can't see that people who are different are not bad.

The right to peaceably assemble was stolen. The police acted stupidly, criminally.

The Constitution does not say there is a limit to how many people can assemble, nor does it specify a license or permit is necessary for that right to be invoked.

http://www.daily-herald.com/index.php?n ... 319#189319

Guest - Comment made: Aug 23, 2005 - 01:49 PM
I need to clear up one particular fact (and add a bit).....It is not just teenage kids attending these music gatherings. In fact, I had witnessed an accounting of most age-brackets represented in Diamond Fork. Some people, like myself, consider themselves â??middle-of-the-roadâ?

I think the responsible way to have handled it would have been to pull the nightclubs license and close the place down. I wonder if the gestapo storm troopers have ever heard the phrase "illegal search and seizure". I'd be interested on Bold Decievers comments on this.

first off, it wasn't in a nightclub. it was outside.

big difference.


Well, I think they not only overstepped their bounds, but they did everything wrong in this case. No warrant? check. Excessive use of force? check. Unwarranted confiscation of property? check.

wake up people.

I live in Utah county just about 10 miles fromt he rave site. It is the most conservative county in the U.S.
It isn't quite as bad living here if your raising kids.
Party Life Sucks. Crime rate is way low in my part of county. So It depends on your perspective on How "bad" it is here. I've lived in worse places. Once you get past the holier than thou attitude and ignore the populace, they will eventually ignore you and life is happy.
And just so you don't give me crap. No I didn't Want to live here it was a job placement thing for the wife. I had to learn to cope with Utah county.

Back to the subject of the rave. That was big time crime fighting for the cops around here. Its funny, because of the somewhat lower crime rate here, they have to hone their nazi tactics somehow.

woodchip wrote:I think the responsible way to have handled it would have been to pull the nightclubs license and close the place down. I wonder if the gestapo storm troopers have ever heard the phrase "illegal search and seizure". I'd be interested on Bold Decievers comments on this.

I think it's too early for anyone to make an assessment regarding whether the raid was (1) properly authorized and (2) properly conducted. The latest article from the Trib indicates the people who organized the party didn't get the proper permit they needed, after all:

"(Health Department representative Jay Stone) said he instructed Fullmer to also contact the sheriff and other county authorities regarding the event plans, which Fullmer denies. Regardless, the issue already is prompting change in health department permit-application procedures. It really isn't our responsibility to follow him around and make sure he's done everything else he needs to, but we want to make sure something like this doesn't happen in the future," Stone said. "So we're adding signature lines, from the sheriff and the fire marshal and others, so we can be sure they've taken care of all they need to."

Roid is correct about Utah being a conservative state. Mormons make up maybe 50 percent of the Salt Lake population, and Mormons are conservative. Roid is also correct there were children there -- the landowner spent a night in jail for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. The trib also reports that the Utah County Sheriff's Office reported 18 citations for disorderly conduct, failure to disperse or related charges; 21 alcohol- or drug-related offenses; two for assaulting a peace officer; and two related to firearms.

So the website should really be named, Music&Unpermitted-Mass-Gathering-&UnderageDrinking&Drugs&Violence&Guns-verus-Guns.org

To answer you more directly, Woodchip, they probably had a search warrant. If they didn't have a search warrant, it probably fell within one of the warrant exceptions. The only seizures appear to be folks taking on the cops, and folks with illegal drugs, it looks to me.

BD

From Utah County's 'Offences and Miscellaneous Provisions' Section 13-4-2-1:

"Required.
No person shall permit, maintain, promote, conduct,
advertise, act as entrepreneur, undertake, organize,
manage, or sell or give tickets to an actual or
reasonably anticipated assembly of two hundred fifty
(250) or more people which continues or can
reasonably be expected to continue for twelve (12) or
more consecutive hours, whether on public or private
property unless a license to hold the assembly has
first been issued by the County Commissioners. (Ord.
No. 1971-4, Section 2, 7-7-71)"

http://www.utahcountyonline.com/apps/We ... Chap13.pdf

YET:
"DJ time slots and Pro Audio and Lighting contracts show that the party was scheduled to go on for no more than ten hours."

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Utah_dance_ ... _by_police


they were also granted a mass gathering permit # 2005-11 to occur on the date of aug 20 2005.

Mass gathering rules. http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code ... 92-400.htm


"Oh another interesting fact.. the police did not have a warrant. The owner of the land already has a lawsuit against the city for something similar. A few months ago, she rented her land for a party and the police raided that as well. And catch this, the police forced her to LEAVE HER OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. That's right. They didnt arrest her, but made her leave her own property!!!"

http://www.utrave.org/showthread.php?t= ... ge=2&pp=10

I also find it odd that the only organizations to mention firearms would be the police department and the mainstream media.

BD, I strongly believe it would be in your best interests to research stories beyond what one site says.

Ferno wrote:BD, I strongly believe it would be in your best interests to research stories beyond what one site says.

Easy fella. Cops acknowledge the party people procured a city health permit; what the cops are are saying is that they didn't get a County permit, which appears to be required. Me? I have no idea.

You missed the part where I said "I think it's too early for anyone to make an assessment regarding whether the raid was (1) properly authorized and (2) properly conducted."

I appreciate your references to wikipedia news, and a post from a forum, but I really think we have enough contradictions and gaps in information here to jump in and declare Truth one way or the other.

Know what I mean?

BD

they got the permit to have a gathering. But, not a permit for one over 250 people. So when the count went over, they were there to use it as a reason for invading the party. enmass.

scrode

they sat counting waitng for the number to go over. Instead of telling them they might need one when they knew inadvance of the party. They used it as a tool against them.

scrode

uh scrode.. yea they did.

refer to the permit number and description i posted earlier.

for what the heresay info's worth:

FIREARMS - i have heard of only one firearm being confiscated - the LANDOWNERS. this is the so-called firearm offence the cops+media have been talking about, the charge will no doubt be dropped as the landowner is completely within his juristiction to have a firearm on his own personal property.

COUNTRY PERMIT - i have also heard conflicting reports on the County permit - some have said that "they actually DID get it - the County office's records have been checked and they confer that the permit was indeed issued".
this is likely what ferno is talking about with permit # 2005-11

DRUGS - also most of the drugs confiscated were from the guards. because the guards were searching kids as they went in so as they confiscated things they ... well what were they gonna do shove them up their ass?
the cops then arrested those guards for possesion (!), while attempting to take credit for their work.
yes the cops also arrested some kids for possession, their sniffer dogs are more sensative than the guards' searches i guess. big whoop there - you'll find more drugs in any rock concert.

sorry I gotta wait till I'm done reading to fire up the bowl.

"but I really think we have enough contradictions and gaps in information here to jump in and declare Truth one way or the other."

that didn't stop you from passing judgement..

Ferno wrote:"but I really think we have enough contradictions and gaps in information here to jump in and declare Truth one way or the other."

that didn't stop you from passing judgement..

What, that Mormons are conservative? You're not really going to argue with me about that, are you?

Or is it where I said the party-dudes should change the name of their website, due to the newspaper reporting the Sheriff issued 18 citations for disorderly conduct, failure to disperse or related charges; 21 alcohol- or drug-related offenses; two for assaulting a peace officer; and two related to firearms?

You're right. It was a rave party. We shouldn't just assume the cops are telling the truth about underage drinking, drugs, and weapons there . . . . But you know it's funny, I missed the part where you disputed all that.

BD

Guys, you are aware that some people here just might be mormons. Hell, you could argue this about any religion. Sure, Utah is where the church leaders live but it is just as much of a mixing bowl as any other city or state in the United States. Last time I was there, it looked pretty equal. If there is some sort of solid evidence that the LDS church had their fingers dipped in the cookie jar then drop me a link but it is not fair to stereotype people like this. It sounds more like the police department is fudged up here, not necessarily the LDS church. Sure, I have my own quarrels with it we should treat all religions and beliefs equal on this board. I mean, I could say that Catholics are all perverts and sex offenders because it is evident by the actions of their preists but I don't believe all Catholics are perverts or sex offenders and I don't believe that their religion is necessarily bad either, just perhaps some of the people involved in it are. No matter what religion, belief or race you come from, there are good and there are bad alike.


Also,if anyone decides to dig around for kicks, keep in mind there are actually totally different groups that call themselves mormons. The original is a relgion that didn't break off from any other church. It was created as a stand-alone church. I guess somewhere down the line, someone decided to split off and do their own thing and so now we have another group claiming they are mormons that have a totally different belief system.


For myself, I know what's right and what is wrong enough to be the judge of my own life. I guess some people need something else to help them along in life and that's allright by me. I just think people should treat each other fairly and treat each religion/beliefs in a fair and equal sense.


I'm just asking you guys to be fair to my beliefs and not stereotype people who have a different belief than you because of something that the government/police force did and because the LDS church leaders happen to reside in that particular state.

Well mob, I'm a mormon and to me they are Very influential in this state. In fact Utah county( the home of BYU) just south of salt lake county. is the most conservative county in the country. they push their beliefs so much, there is controversy over a bikini cuts hair salon. Sure there are non mormons but they are few. The liquor. laws are so infuenenced by the church that the commission had to put a non mormon on the board just to keep people from yelling bias. If the church leaders dont like a law they pretty much quel it by their influence. That is just a couple of the things. And no I haven't lived here all my life. I've lived all over the west and some east. This is the only place I've lived that people take it for granted your mormon(or any religion for that matter) and if your not they alienate you. I'm not mormon bashing, just telling it like it is. It is well known here that the church has influence in what goes on in this state.
My grandmother was a second wife (or third who knows),(through the church's eyes)of one of the prophets sons that went to mexico to get away from persecution from the feds for polygamy, this is was in the 1940's. So I speak from knowledge. not from hearing it from someone else.
My brother in law is friends with many on various police forces in this county and they are very influenced by religion. If that party had been sponsored by the chusch they would have been informed of ALL the permits they would need and they wouldn't of had to deal with the crap they got. For example, my mother in law owns property in the canyon right next to the one that had the rave. We were going to have a little party. The police caught wind of it and had the canyon road blocked (mind you this is the only time it happens). Calling it a routine traffic stop. But it was obvious that it wasn't.

end of rant

linky
linky
linky

just a couple there are many more

s. wrote:linky
linky
linky

just a couple there are many more

yawn. Do me a favor, "Nut Sack the Mormon". Explain where it is in Mormon teaching that one is permitted to hold the name "Nut Sack".

And by the way. Generally speaking, fascinating links to articles fascinating to you are more helpful if you can provide a synopsis of what kind of point you're trying to make.

Do Mormons influence Utah politics?

Oh my gosh yes.

BD

yawn do me a favor. read the links. they are in answer to mob wanting links(like the links are about pygmies in alaska). isn't this thread about Lds influence in utah government, that resulted on the raid on the rave?
Because that is what it boiled down to. If you lived here, you would understand the mindset more. Don't get me wrong. where I live the crime is VERY VERY low, schools are good and I dont have to lock my doors when I go somewhere. so you have to take the good with the bad.

Just like anywhere.

But back to the subject. The police action was over- kill and over-zealous. Like BD said there is more drugs at a concert than a rave anyday.

Btw, there is alot about me that doesn't meet the standards set by the religion.

"Nut Sack the Mormon"



bitches.

Heh

s. wrote:yawn do me a favor. read the links. they are in answer to mob wanting links(like the links are about pygmies in alaska). isn't this thread about Lds influence in utah government, that resulted on the raid on the rave?
Because that is what it boiled down to. If you lived here, you would understand the mindset more.

Dear Nutsack the Mormon Moroni,

I was born in Salt Lake City. How about you?

I understand the mindset plenty. If you want to make a point to anyone other than Mob, provide some context other than "Linky". If more than six people went to the trouble to figure out your post by reading completely your "link[ies]", you could knock me over with a feather.

Cheers,

BD

There were links?