How to evacuate a city....NOT

[Will Robinson]

An aerial view of flooded school buses in a lot, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005, in New Orleans, LA. The flood is a result of Hurricane Katrina that passed through the area last Monday.(AP Photo/Phil Coale)

I know some of you have been hearing and reading about how Bush caused the failure that is unfolding in the gulf coast but just don't want to be the one bring it up. So, with me being about as anti-politically-correct as they come, please allow me the honor:

[sarcasm] I haven't quite figured out how Haliburton got Bush to park all those buses instead of using them to move people out...but I'm sure the details of how to prove it are in the works. [/sarcasm]

[Stryker]

Actually, he should have made everyone walk out, otherwise all the pollution from those diesel buses, and those dirty helicopter and boat engines could have caused global warming, making more hurricanes, which, in turn, would have wreaked even more havoc. Plus, there's probably enough gas in all those buses to have let us off the hook of needing to go to war with Iraq for oil. Then we would have had enough money to improve the dikes at New Orleans, and the flooding would have never happened, and terrorists wouldn't hate us for invading their country, so we wouldn't need any more border patrol and the world would be saved.

Ok, I've had my dose of cynicism for the day. See ya.

[Couver_]

Then we would have had enough money to improve the dikes at New Orleans,

I'm offended!!

Shouldn't that be dirt of alternate sexuality??

[Stryker]

If you tell me that yet another word has been perverted with a sexual meaning, so help me God, I will write my own dictionary.

[TheCope]

Well,
Iâ??ll tell you a nice story. I was at work today watching cnn footage on this bigass plasma TV with a receptionist discussing the horrors of this unbelievable circumstance.

These other people kinda get in our face asking why we think response time is so slow etc etc. I tell them that I think its kind of sick to politicize this nightmare, if ever, but especially at this desperate time. Send your money to the red cross you dirty kunts.

It got really heated.

I was explaining the feds have no experience to deal with the 80% destruction of a major U.S. city, it simply hasn't ever happened. The closest thing was some model LSU and the CDC did. But they were studies not real life.

They basically called me a racist off the bat (because I am aware of the multi-layered logistical nightmare this disaster is, I guess). They wouldn't have it and began to insult me... as in "we were under the whip then and we are under the whip now" -exact quote-

I told him "you are bitter deluded old man that is slowly killing yourself with your poisoned mind" -exact quote-

This is spilling over into all sorts of bull★■◆● and it's pissing me off. I mean Iâ??ve never heard of Americans referred to as "refugees" before and these 2 people were using an unthinkable tragedy as their catalyst for the ultimate blame game. It made me sick.

Iâ??m sorry if that is ugly but it's true. I thought I would share the effects of this hurricane on the psyche of Americans.

Peace

[Grendel]

Couple of interesting reads:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/

[will_kill]

Actually, he should have made everyone walk out, otherwise all the pollution from those diesel buses......Ok, I've had my dose of cynicism for the day. See ya.

just so ya' know...I'd estimate 98.5% of school buses use regular gas

[Birdseye]

It looks like everyone was caught with their pants down, including bush. The cities themselves weren't prepared, the counties weren't, states weren't, and the feds weren't.

Like the Tsunami, it took a disaster of this proportion to wake up the affected region. Sad but true. I don't think the blame game solves much, we should send money to the poor and figure out how to clean this up... then we can figure out how to prevent it.

[Palzon]

I share sentiments of both Will and Cops.

The point I would like to make is that I'm bothered that response was not quicker. In my opinion it is clear that a quicker response on a larger scale would have saved more lives.

I'm bothered that it took 4 1/2 days after the hurricane had passed for significant relief to reach people. I'm bothered that a massive response wasn't mounted more quickly.

I'm not speculating on the cause at this time. I think our current emphasis should be on rescue and recovery since many persons remain at risk at this time. I think we should limit speculation on what caused the need for a massive response. But I think it's concerning that it did take so long.

Many in the local/regional government and many on the liberal side are blaming the federal government. The federal government and right wing are blaming the local government. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. but none of that matters as much as fixing the current problem. Let's stop the bleeding, folks.

Will...are you suggesting that the delay in sufficient response is due to trying to decide who should get rich off of this?

Cops I think the most important thing is that we have plans in place for the next time, not to point fingers about this one. But the issue of response time is still significant, especially while people still need rescue. To that end, some politicizing is probably benficial to help grease the wheels.

I work for the government. I understand that for bad reasons and for good reasons, the government is more reactive than proactive. the blame game is not important to me. finding solutions to save lives now and prevent another disaster is important to me.

If i had to be concrete about it. I would say we should have seen food, water, and supplies heading in by whatever means within 24 hours after the flooding stopped. so that would put things around wednesday evening.

There are other areas where only a vertical rescue and and recovery could occurr in the future just as in New Orleans. I think we should be sure that a better reponse happens than did in New Orleans.

As far as your bitter old man, I disagree with him, but I understand why he feels that way. Even though I don't see this as institutionalized racism, I probably would if I had to endure it all my life. Not to mention that dumbasses like O'Reilly have been saying that the people who stayed behind did so because they wanted to loot.

Btw, and I've always preferred the term Displaced Person (DP) to refugee.

[Gooberman]

I havnt had the news on much, so after I read this thread I wanted to check.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/messa ... 2005-09-02

Yup. Some nice redmeat there for the righters.

[TheCope]

As far as your bitter old man, I disagree with him, but I understand why he feels that way. Even though I don't see this as institutionalized racism, I probably would if I had to endure it all my life.

Itâ??s not like Iâ??m some rich farm boy. I grew up on section 8 with all sorts of poor people... and that is fact.

I will never understand what it's like to be any other person except myself. I know institutionalized racism exists. The guy was spitting in his allies face it's inexcusable.

**And the dude on the hurricane relief telethon on nbc just popped off and said "george bush doesn't care about black people" live on national TV.**Right now as I type.

This is gonna get out of hand and for what?

[Palzon]

Cops, i feel your pain, dude. This whole thing is a cryin a$$ shame on many levels.

[DCrazy]

Two wars halfway around the world couldn't tear this country apart, but a hurricane can. I guess when it hits close to home Middle America starts paying a bit more attention...

At least the leftniks protesting the war didn't get too violent. Words like "warmongerer" and "hippie" don't carry much weight. But once you bring the topic of race into the debate, the sh!t starts flying.

[TheCope]

Cops, i feel your pain, dude. This whole thing is a cryin a$$ shame on many levels.

That is impossible. You can't know what it's like to be another creature; it's a ★■◆●ing lie.

Iâ??m not trying to hack on you Palzon. But Iâ??m tired of it. That phrase "I feel your pain", it's a lie.

This is how twisted people have become... I am actually responding to this thread rather than solving the issue at hand.

Iâ??m sorry for dropping out but ★■◆● you for taking a whack at the Midwest dcrazy... this is OUR American city that went down and people are using it to serve their political agendas, it is disgust.

I have become useless to this thread.

[Couver_]

I don't think DCrazy was taking a swipe at the Midwest. "Middle America" to me is just the the middle of the road working class types not set by Geograpy...

*edit Middle Class thats what I was looking for

[DCrazy]

I wasn't taking a swipe at the location... though my comment does look a bit knee-jerk. Couver has it right. I was really talking about the vapid majority of people whose worldly consciousness extends as far as The Today Show. I'm well aware they stretch from coast to coast. Forgive me for being a bit childish in my wording, I probably should have made my meaning a bit clearer.

I'm just fed up with the namecalling. People calling the President a racist because New Orleans has a majority black population just unnerves me...

As soon as I get some money (just wiped out my bank account buying college books), I'm donating to the Red Cross. We (Loyola College in Maryland) are actually taking in a bunch of students from Loyola University in New Orleans, and 2 other colleges in Louisiana, so I'm not going to be that far removed from people who have actually been affected.

[Ferno]

caught off guard? no.

there was a report in Scientific American in 2001 that detailed every event you're witnessing now in New Orleans.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 414B7F0000

yet nothing was done.

[Sirian]

I don't think the blame game solves much, we should send money to the poor and figure out how to clean this up... then we can figure out how to prevent it.

I concur.

- Sirian

[TechPro]

caught off guard? no.

there was a report in Scientific American in 2001 that detailed every event you're witnessing now in New Orleans.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 414B7F0000

yet nothing was done.

You forgetting that came out 1 month after 9/11 ? I suspect they may have been a bit preoccupied when that article came out.

[Sirius]

Mankind has a tendency to underestimate the dangers for no good reason. Happened before, will probably happen again...

If they're going to keep New Orleans, however, they really do need to make this sort of disaster a little more difficult. Once in a lifetime isn't rare enough if the damage caused takes a small country's GDP to fix.

[Couver_]

I think they should go Ala Seattle Underground. Just get the water out then lay the new sewers and stuff. Then fill with dirt to about 10ft above Sea Level. That stuff that has been soaked in sewage/chemicals and whatever ain't going to be much good it needs to be buried.


"Attention New Orleans!! Your 1st floor is now your 5th basement"

And move on...

[Ferno]

tech.. that article has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11

this article correlates with it: http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html

[Top Gun]

Ferno, that problem was known well before 2001; it's been discussed for a few decades. I guess it's the same thing as the natural human response to a lot of catastrophes in life: the longer you go without experiencing one, the more you start to feel invulnerable to them.

[Ferno]

it's been discussed for a few decades.

that's my point.

[Couver_]

caught off guard? no.

there was a report in Scientific American in 2001 that detailed every event you're witnessing now in New Orleans.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 414B7F0000

yet nothing was done.

You forgetting that came out 1 month after 9/11 ? I suspect they may have been a bit preoccupied when that article came out.

I have imbibed a bit more then I should so I hope I am misreading your intent. Like Ferno said this has been known about for a lot longer then 9/11 and re-visted after that.


This is on such a greater scale then 9/11. While that was done by a bunch of lunatics Katrina was a force of nature that we can't control.9/11 had 3 different cities working on what was going on.

I have read where people are saying if Gulianni(sp?) was the mayor things would have been better for N.O. BS!! This is a 3 state trainwreck! Hell imagine if New Orleans was like it was the morning after it went through before the levee's broke.It was not that bad. Whats going on in Missippi and Alabama is enough to dominate the news.And require our maximum efforts. Its just a bad bad situation down there and like I said before we need to point fingers later. For now lets get there with water and food and HELP those people no matter the reason they are still there.

[Palzon]

Cops, i feel your pain, dude. This whole thing is a cryin a$$ shame on many levels.

That is impossible. You can't know what it's like to be another creature; it's a ****ing lie.

new orleans or not every day i deal with parents ass raping their own children. i dont have time to stop and emotinally process the newest horror. i mean it. a job has to be done. we're all people. we're all human beings.

[TheCope]

i gave 50 dollars to the American red cross, that's what I could spare. Iâ??m not trying to be a bizatch but yesterday had me really messed up. I typed without thought, what's new?

Mind towards helping people.

[Zuruck]

It's not Bush's fault that FEMA doesn't really exist anymore since it's been folded into the Homeland Security. But what good would it have been? The first guy to head it was Bush's old friend with no experience and is currently lead by the deputy director with no experience either. That said, along with what everyone else has said, it's a lack of planning and execution for decades, not the last five years. You can only be lucky so many times before it catches up to you, it was going to happen, it did happen, now is the time to shake your head and hope it will rattle some cages. Will it? Probably not, it will be forgotten about by the rest of the country in three months, America has ADD, whatever happens next will get our attention. Where was the Lousiana National Guard that should have been deployed immediately following the storm? Oh that's right, the all volunteer army in Iraq, forgot about that.

[Sirian]

Where was the Lousiana National Guard that should have been deployed immediately following the storm? Oh that's right, the all volunteer army in Iraq, forgot about that.

One third of the Lousianna National Guard was deployed to Iraq by a Republican President, but the other two thirds were sitting on their asses IN LOUSIANNA under the command of a Democratic governor who lacked an effective plan to deploy them sooner. The city of New Orleans, under a Democratic mayor, also lacked a worst case plan. Democrats, as they tend to do, were all looking to the FEDERAL government to take responsibility for them, instead of taking responsibility for themselves as was their duty. Are these people unaware of the extent of their responsibility? It's the mayor, not the president, who must coordinate local evacuation plans and first responders. Bush declared the states a disaster area two days before the storm arrived, so the federal resources were already mobilized. The buses at the top of this post show just how underprepared the local planning really was.

But yeah, if it makes you feel better to blame Bush, go ahead. Knee-jerk reaction that it is. The National Guard in Lousianna -- the two thirds of it that was present -- were NEEDED to guard to governor's mansion, or something. They aren't "real" guardsman capable of, like, following orders or anything. It is only the couple thousand over in Iraq. Yeah, their absence is THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE CRISIS. Brilliant.


- Sirian

[Palzon]

local planning doesn't mean much when you have a cascading failure of local/regional infrastructure. clearly ALL levels of government were unprepared to respond quickly enough and with sufficient relief.

the federal resources were mobilized? you are joking right?

if it makes you feel better to blame the local government, go ahead. knee-jerk reaction that it is.

[Vander]

Failure, it seems in this disaster, is wherever you look. Failure to build up the levees and restore barrier islands in the years leading. Failure to provide transportation for those that wanted to leave, but couldn't in the days leading. Failure to provide housing for those displaced. Failure to deliver food and water to those trapped.

Will's picture at the top is incredible. How many thousands of people could have been bused out with those buses?

How hard would it have been to supply the buses coming from Houston to the Superdome with large quantities of food and water for those left behind at the Superdome and Convention Center?

How long would it have taken for a few blackhawks to stop by a Costco and pick up pallets of bottled water and food to drop at the Superdome and Convention Center?

A major responsibility of the government is planning for a disaster of this magnitude. Federal government has a special responsibility in the aftermath. Palzon makes a good point. Local governments have a great responsibility before hand, but after the fact, they can be devistated. Where are the stockpiles of MRE's, bottled water, and materials for tent cities strategically placed throughout the country for quick mobilization? Newsflash, hurricanes hit the gulf states and the eastern seaboard EVERY YEAR.

Can you imagine if this devastation happened with no warning?

It just seems like there was a failure to act with common sense, all around. And it boggles the mind.

[TheCope]

I was gonna shut my hole but I changed my mind.

I watched the NBC hurricane relief telethon last night for many reasons, Wyton Marsalis a national treasure, being the main attraction hands down. He was of course off the hook with his undying attention and loyalty to traditional jazz. Not to mention, his hometown got completely destroyed.

New Orleans was one of the hot beds of jazz music, a black American style of music that we all embrace. Think Iâ??m lying? Turn on the radio or think about your favorite song. Jazz snuck in there somehow, someway. But only the musicians that can play it have any ownership over the style. People who canâ??t do a frigginâ?? thing like to hold it as some sort of ammunition, but they donâ??t get to. The reason is simple; â??you cannot jazz.â?

[Sirius]

And the whole 'shooting us' thing is laughable... don't want to get shot? Don't fire first.

[Will Robinson]

Just spotted this on the Drudge Report, had to throw it in here:

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

I swear to god, it appears they just forgot they were living in a city built in a sinking ditch surrounded by a river, a lake and the freakin' Gulf of Mexico!
Storm surge being forcast in the 20+ foot range for at least a day prior to impact
It was like, 'Aww just leave the buses there we'll come back and get them if we need them'. At least one of the sherrifs departments (or a police precinct, can't remember) lost something like 98% of their vehicles the same way!

[woodchip]

It is human nature to believe disaster will not happen to them.
Something like 30% of N.O. residents live below the poverty line. Most of them do not own a vehicle. Knowing this the cities mayor should have had emergency transportation (like the buses in Will's pic.) picking up people and getting them to high ground.
Putting 20,000 people in a facility where the bathrooms will cease functioning when the flooding starts is asinine. Why the mayor didn't at least have port-a-johns set up as a emergency backup is beyond me.

Vander, hind sight is a great tool. Lets hope all in emergency planning now understand that the worst can happen and learn from all the mistakes made during Kat's devastating run to land.

[Vander]

"Vander, hind sight is a great tool."

We should have been using hindsight before the storm hit. How many devistating hurricanes or other disasters have hit the U.S. in the past? Relief supplies should have been readied for shipment once we knew there was a storm approaching. Massive air drops of water and food should've been made by Tuesday at the latest. Hell, food and water should've been waiting at the Superdome before the storm hit!

It boggles the mind.

[DCrazy]

Bush is lucky this happened to him in his second term; Andrew hit Bush 41 during the end of his first and, according to many, cost him the election. For all the political ★■◆● flying, Bush doesn't have to worry about anything of that sort.

Unfortunately, I think that is contributing to the image that he isn't doing enough... that he's suffering from complacency. In reality, it's the governor who should be the real focus here. There's a reason states have governors, and that the governors have the power to declare a state of emergency. I haven't seen a news article yet lambasting the governor. Who, just to get more feathers ruffled, is a Democrat.

To me, her political party is inconsequential. The question is whether it matters to the media that's been covering the story...

Vander, hindsight would have dictated that building a city below sea level that depended on draining its floodwater into the Mississippi would be a horrible idea. Hindsight would have also dictated that cutting corners on the WTC construction was a bad idea (the Port Authority of NY and NJ, which built the buildings, exempted itself from NYC building codes which would have required them to better fireproof the building -- their argument was that they were a bi-state agency and above local zoning laws). Hindsight should dictate that it's absolutely critical to build bridges from Long Island to Connecticut and New Jersey, because as it stands the only way from Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk is through Manhattan, over the Verrazano into Staten Island or over the Whitestone/Throgs Neck into the Bronx. But of course, nobody wants to think of that.

It's absolutely horrifying to see the results. It's appalling that the chaos has escalated to such a level. It's despicable that people are blaming the President, who's currently involved in and taking major flak from two Middle Eastern wars and dealing with looming threats like North Korea, for the inadequate response to a natural disaster that can only be predicted once its course is inevitable.

There are some things you can't prevent, but you can anticipate. The failures that led to such devastation stretch much farther and hit much closer than the White House. That's the final chapter of my political rant on the topic.

[dissent]

In reality, it's the governor who should be the real focus here.

exactamundo, and I also wouldn't let New Orleans mayor Nagin off the hook either. I was watching at least for a couple of days on the Weather Channel as this thing grew into a Cat 5 monster. I imagine between the governor and the mayor they could have done a better job of just about everything - starting with having a realistic evacuation plan for situations like this, not to mention a clean-up plan for afterwards. It took Mayor Nagin a long time to call for the evacuation of the city.

While were at it, frankly, let's not let some of these trapped citizens completely off the hook either. People knew for days that Katrina was coming, but it seems like not too many took the advice to lay up several days worth of food and other emergency goods in case there was flooding or the power went out. I understand that not everybody could do this, but why just show up at the Astrodome with a suitcase full of clothes and expect someone else to provide all the other essentials. At least some people did do this! Citizens in a potential situation like New Orleans need to have their own disaster recovery plans in mind.

[fliptw]

Im pretty sure everyone expected it to be like the hurricanes that hit florida the last couple of years - something that relatively easy to recover from, according to news media.

For too many people, something isn't dangerous unless you experience it yourself, and that shows very well here.

Thats pretty much the failure here, from the ground all the way up to the President- Four hurricanes hit florida last year and they are still OK, so it can be that bad for the Gulf...

[Vertigo 99]

for the record, kayne west isn't pop music, quite the contrary. right or wrong, i really think he's just expressing his opinion - he gives a minimal ★■◆● about capitalizing off of it.