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A nation of cowards!

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:31 pm
by Fusion pimp
Great read.


A Nation of Cowards
Jeffrey R. Snyder

OUR SOCIETY has reached a pinnacle of self-expression and respect for individuality rare or unmatched in history. Our entire popular culture -- from fashion magazines to the cinema -- positively screams the matchless worth of the individual, and glories in eccentricity, nonconformity, independent judgment, and self-determination. This enthusiasm is reflected in the prevalent notion that helping someone entails increasing that person's "self-esteem"; that if a person properly values himself, he will naturally be a happy, productive, and, in some inexplicable fashion, responsible member of society.

And yet, while people are encouraged to revel in their individuality and incalculable self-worth, the media and the law enforcement establishment continually advise us that, when confronted with the threat of lethal violence, we should not resist, but simply give the attacker what he wants. If the crime under consideration is rape, there is some notable waffling on this point, and the discussion quickly moves to how the woman can change her behavior to minimize the risk of rape, and the various ridiculous, non-lethal weapons she may acceptably carry, such as whistles, keys, mace or, that weapon which really sends shivers down a rapist's spine, the portable cellular phone.

Now how can this be? How can a person who values himself so highly calmly accept the indignity of a criminal assault? How can one who believes that the essence of his dignity lies in his self-determination passively accept the forcible deprivation of that self-determination? How can he, quietly, with great dignity and poise, simply hand over the goods?

The assumption, of course, is that there is no inconsistency. The advice not to resist a criminal assault and simply hand over the goods is founded on the notion that one's life is of incalculable value, and that no amount of property is worth it. Put aside, for a moment, the outrageousness of the suggestion that a criminal who proffers lethal violence should be treated as if he has instituted a new social contract: "I will not hurt or kill you if you give me what I want." For years, feminists have labored to educate people that rape is not about sex, but about domination, degradation, and control. Evidently, someone needs to inform the law enforcement establishment and the media that kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, and assault are not about property.

Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist.

The gift of life

Although difficult for modern man to fathom, it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, that to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community. A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:

He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.

"Cowardice" and "self-respect" have largely disappeared from public discourse. In their place we are offered "self-esteem" as the bellwether of success and a proxy for dignity. "Self-respect" implies that one recognizes standards, and judges oneself worthy by the degree to which one lives up to them. "Self-esteem" simply means that one feels good about oneself. "Dignity" used to refer to the self-mastery and fortitude with which a person conducted himself in the face of life's vicissitudes and the boorish behavior of others. Now, judging by campus speech codes, dignity requires that we never encounter a discouraging word and that others be coerced into acting respectfully, evidently on the assumption that we are powerless to prevent our degradation if exposed to the demeaning behavior of others. These are signposts proclaiming the insubstantiality of our character, the hollowness of our souls.

It is impossible to address the problem of rampant crime without talking about the moral responsibility of the intended victim. Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens. Crime is not rampant because we do not have enough prisons, because judges and prosecutors are too soft, because the police are hamstrung with absurd technicalities. The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers.

Do you feel lucky?

In 1991, when then-Attorney General Richard Thornburgh released the FBI's annual crime statistics, he noted that it is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves. The police, however, are not personal bodyguards. Rather, they act as a general deterrent to crime, both by their presence and by apprehending criminals after the fact. As numerous courts have held, they have no legal obligation to protect anyone in particular. You cannot sue them for failing to prevent you from being the victim of a crime.

Insofar as the police deter by their presence, they are very, very good. Criminals take great pains not to commit a crime in front of them. Unfortunately, the corollary is that you can pretty much bet your life (and you are) that they won't be there at the moment you actually need them.

Should you ever be the victim of an assault, a robbery, or a rape, you will find it very difficult to call the police while the act is in progress, even if you are carrying a portable cellular phone. Nevertheless, you might be interested to know how long it takes them to show up. Department of Justice statistics for 1991 show that, for all crimes of violence, only 28 percent of calls are responded to within five minutes. The idea that protection is a service people can call to have delivered and expect to receive in a timely fashion is often mocked by gun owners, who love to recite the challenge, "Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first".

Many people deal with the problem of crime by convincing themselves that they live, work, and travel only in special "crime-free" zones. Invariably, they react with shock and hurt surprise when they discover that criminals do not play by the rules and do not respect these imaginary boundaries. If, however, you understand that crime can occur anywhere at anytime, and if you understand that you can be maimed or mortally wounded in mere seconds, you may wish to consider whether you are willing to place the responsibility for safeguarding your life in the hands of others.

Power and responsibility

Is your life worth protecting? If so, whose responsibility is it to protect it? If you believe that it is the police's, not only are you wrong -- since the courts universally rule that they have no legal obligation to do so -- but you face some difficult moral quandaries. How can you rightfully ask another human being to risk his life to protect yours, when you will assume no responsibility yourself? Because that is his job and we pay him to do it? Because your life is of incalculable value, but his is only worth the $30,000 salary we pay him? If you believe it reprehensible to possess the means and will to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault, how can you call upon another to do so for you?

Do you believe that you are forbidden to protect yourself because the police are better qualified to protect you, because they know what they are doing but you're a rank amateur? Put aside that this is equivalent to believing that only concert pianists may play the piano and only professional athletes may play sports. What exactly are these special qualities possessed only by the police and beyond the rest of us mere mortals?

One who values his life and takes seriously his responsibilities to his family and community will possess and cultivate the means of fighting back, and will retaliate when threatened with death or grievous injury to himself or a loved one. He will never be content to rely solely on others for his safety, or to think he has done all that is possible by being aware of his surroundings and taking measures of avoidance. Let's not mince words: He will be armed, will be trained in the use of his weapon, and will defend himself when faced with lethal violence.

Fortunately, there is a weapon for preserving life and liberty that can be wielded effectively by almost anyone -- the handgun. Small and light enough to be carried habitually, lethal, but unlike the knife or sword, not demanding great skill or strength, it truly is the "great equalizer." Requiring only hand-eye coordination and a modicum of ability to remain cool under pressure, it can be used effectively by the old and the weak against the young and the strong, by the one against the many.

The handgun is the only weapon that would give a lone female jogger a chance of prevailing against a gang of thugs intent on rape, a teacher a chance of protecting children at recess from a madman intent on massacring them, a family of tourists waiting at a mid-town subway station the means to protect themselves from a gang of teens armed with razors and knives.

But since we live in a society that by and large outlaws the carrying of arms, we are brought into the fray of the Great American Gun War. Gun control is one of the most prominent battlegrounds in our current culture wars. Yet it is unique in the half-heartedness with which our conservative leaders and pundits -- our "conservative elite" -- do battle, and have conceded the moral high ground to liberal gun control proponents. It is not a topic often written about, or written about with any great fervor, by William F. Buckley or Patrick Buchanan. As drug czar, William Bennett advised President Bush to ban "assault weapons." George Will is on record as recommending the repeal of the Second Amendment, and Jack Kemp is on record as favoring a ban on the possession of semiautomatic "assault weapons." The battle for gun rights is one fought predominantly by the common man. The beliefs of both our liberal and conservative elites are in fact abetting the criminal rampage through our society.

Selling crime prevention

By any rational measure, nearly all gun control proposals are hokum. The Brady Bill, for example, would not have prevented John Hinckley from obtaining a gun to shoot President Reagan; Hinckley purchased his weapon five months before the attack, and his medical records could not have served as a basis to deny his purchase of a gun, since medical records are not public documents filed with the police. Similarly, California's waiting period and background check did not stop Patrick Purdy from purchasing the "assault rifle" and handguns he used to massacre children during recess in a Stockton schoolyard; the felony conviction that would have provided the basis for stopping the sales did not exist, because Mr. Purdy's previous weapons violations were plea-bargained down from felonies to misdemeanors.

In the mid-sixties there was a public service advertising campaign targeted at car owners about the prevention of car theft. The purpose of the ad was to urge car owners not to leave their keys in their cars. The message was, "Don't help a good boy go bad." The implication was that, by leaving his keys in his car, the normal, law-abiding car owner was contributing to the delinquency of minors who, if they just weren't tempted beyond their limits, would be "good." Now, in those days people still had a fair sense of just who was responsible for whose behavior. The ad succeeded in enraging a goodly portion of the populace, and was soon dropped.

Nearly all of the gun control measures offered by Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) and its ilk embody the same philosophy. They are founded on the belief that America's law-abiding gun owners are the source of the problem. With their unholy desire for firearms, they are creating a society awash in a sea of guns, thereby helping good boys go bad, and helping bad boys be badder. This laying of moral blame for violent crime at the feet of the law-abiding, and the implicit absolution of violent criminals for their misdeeds, naturally infuriates honest gun owners.

The files of HCI and other gun control organizations are filled with proposals to limit the availability of semiautomatic and other firearms to law-abiding citizens, and barren of proposals for apprehending and punishing violent criminals. It is ludicrous to expect that the proposals of HCI, or any gun control laws, will significantly curb crime. According to Department of Justice and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) statistics, fully 90 percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun, and 93 percent of the guns obtained by violent criminals are not obtained through the lawful purchase and sale transactions that are the object of most gun control legislation. Furthermore, the number of violent criminals is minute in comparison to the number of firearms in America -- estimated by the ATF at about 200 million, approximately one-third of which are handguns. With so abundant a supply, there will always be enough guns available for those who wish to use them for nefarious ends, no matter how complete the legal prohibitions against them, or how draconian the punishment for their acquisition or use. No, the gun control proposals of HCI and other organizations are not seriously intended as crime control. Something else is at work here.

The tyranny of the elite

Gun control is a moral crusade against a benighted, barbaric citizenry. This is demonstrated not only by the ineffectualness of gun control in preventing crime, and by the fact that it focuses on restricting the behavior of the law-abiding rather than apprehending and punishing the guilty, but also by the execration that gun control proponents heap on gun owners and their evil instrumentality, the NRA Gun owners are routinely portrayed as uneducated, paranoid rednecks fascinated by and prone to violence, i.e., exactly the type of person who opposes the liberal agenda and whose moral and social "re-education" is the object of liberal social policies. Typical of such bigotry is New York Gov. Mario Cuomo's famous characterization of gun-owners as "hunters who drink beer, don't vote, and lie to their wives about where they were all weekend." Similar vituperation is rained upon the NRA, characterized by Sen. Edward Kennedy as the "pusher's best friend," lampooned in political cartoons as standing for the right of children to carry firearms to school and, in general, portrayed as standing for an individual's God-given right to blow people away at will.

The stereotype is, of course, false. As criminologist and constitutional lawyer Don B. Kates, Jr. and former HCI contributor Dr. Patricia Harris have pointed out, "tudies consistently show that, on the average, gun owners are better educated and have more prestigious jobs than non-owners.... Later studies show that gun owners are less likely than non-owners to approve of police brutality, violence against dissenters, etc."

Conservatives must understand that the antipathy many liberals have for gun owners arises in good measure from their statist utopianism. This habit of mind has nowhere been better explored than in The Republic. There, Plato argues that the perfectly just society is one in which an unarmed people exhibit virtue by minding their own business in the performance of their assigned functions, while the government of philosopher-kings, above the law and protected by armed guardians unquestioning in their loyalty to the state, engineers, implements, and fine-tunes the creation of that society, aided and abetted by myths that both hide and justify their totalitarian manipulation.

The unarmed life

When columnist Carl Rowan preaches gun control and uses a gun to defend his home, when Maryland Gov. William Donald Schaefer seeks legislation year after year to ban semiautomatic "assault weapons" whose only purpose, we are told, is to kill people, while he is at the same time escorted by state police armed with large-capacity 9mm semiautomatic pistols, it is not simple hypocrisy. It is the workings of that habit of mind possessed by all superior beings who have taken upon themselves the terrible burden of civilizing the masses and who understand, like our Congress, that laws are for other people.

The liberal elite know that they are philosopher-kings. They know that the people simply cannot be trusted; that they are incapable of just and fair self-government; that left to their own devices, their society will be racist, sexist, homophobic, and inequitable -- and the liberal elite know how to fix things. They are going to help us live the good and just life, even if they have to lie to us and force us to do it. And they detest those who stand in their way.

The private ownership of firearms is a rebuke to this utopian zeal. To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state. It is to reserve final judgment about whether the state is encroaching on freedom and liberty, to stand ready to defend that freedom with more than mere words, and to stand outside the state's totalitarian reach.

The Florida experience

The elitist distrust of the people underlying the gun control movement is illustrated beautifully in HCI's campaign against a new concealed-carry law in Florida. Prior to 1987, the Florida law permitting the issuance of concealed-carry permits was administered at the county level. The law was vague, and, as a result, was subject to conflicting interpretation and political manipulation. Permits were issued principally to security personnel and the privileged few with political connections. Permits were valid only within the county of issuance.

In 1987, however, Florida enacted a uniform concealed-carry law which mandates that county authorities issue a permit to anyone who satisfies certain objective criteria. The law requires that a permit be issued to any applicant who is a resident, at least twenty-one years of age, has no criminal record, no record of alcohol or drug abuse, no history of mental illness, and provides evidence of having satisfactorily completed a firearms safety course offered by the NRA or other competent instructor. The applicant must provide a set of fingerprints, after which the authorities make a background check. The permit must be issued or denied within ninety days, is valid throughout the state, and must be renewed every three years, which provides authorities a regular means of reevaluating whether the permit holder still qualifies.

Passage of this legislation was vehemently opposed by HCI and the media. The law, they said, would lead to citizens shooting each other over everyday disputes involving fender benders, impolite behavior, and other slights to their dignity. Terms like "Florida, the Gunshine State" and "Dodge City East" were coined to suggest that the state, and those seeking passage of the law, were encouraging individuals to act as judge, jury, and executioner in a "Death Wish" society.

No HCI campaign more clearly demonstrates the elitist beliefs underlying the campaign to eradicate gun ownership. Given the qualifications required of permit holders, HCI and the media can only believe that common, law-abiding citizens are seething cauldrons of homicidal rage, ready to kill to avenge any slight to their dignity, eager to seek out and summarily execute the lawless. Only lack of immediate access to a gun restrains them and prevents the blood from flowing in the streets. They are so mentally and morally deficient that they would mistake a permit to carry a weapon in self-defense as a state-sanctioned license to kill at will.

Did the dire predictions come true? Despite the fact that Miami and Dade County have severe problems with the drug trade, the homicide rate fell in Florida following enactment of this law, as it did in Oregon following enactment of similar legislation there. There are, in addition, several documented cases of new permit holders successfully using their weapons to defend themselves. Information from the Florida Department of State shows that, from the beginning of the program in 1987 through June 1993, 160,823 permits have been issued, and only 530, or about 0.33 percent of the applicants, have been denied a permit for failure to satisfy the criteria, indicating that the law is benefitting those whom it was intended to benefit -- the law-abiding. Only 16 permits, less than 1/100th of 1 percent, have been revoked due to the post-issuance commission of a crime involving a firearm.

The Florida legislation has been used as a model for legislation adopted by Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Mississippi. There are, in addition, seven other states (Maine, North and South Dakota, Utah, Washington, West Virginia, and, with the exception of cities with a population in excess of 1 million, Pennsylvania) which provide that concealed-carry permits must be issued to law-abiding citizens who satisfy various objective criteria. Finally, no permit is required at all in Vermont. Altogether, then, there are thirteen states in which law-abiding citizens who wish to carry arms to defend themselves may do so. While no one appears to have compiled the statistics from all of these jurisdictions, there is certainly an ample data base for those seeking the truth about the trustworthiness of law-abiding citizens who carry firearms.

Other evidence also suggests that armed citizens are very responsible in using guns to defend themselves. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck, using surveys and other data, has determined that armed citizens defend their lives or property with firearms against criminals approximately 1 million times a year. In 98 percent of these instances, the citizen merely brandishes the weapon or fires a warning shot. Only in 2 percent of the cases do citizens actually shoot their assailants. In defending themselves with their firearms, armed citizens kill 2,000 to 3,000 criminals each year, three times the number killed by the police. A nationwide study by Kates, the constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, over five times as high.

It is simply not possible to square the numbers above and the experience of Florida with the notions that honest, law-abiding gun owners are borderline psychopaths itching for an excuse to shoot someone, vigilantes eager to seek out and summarily execute the lawless, or incompetent fools incapable of determining when it is proper to use lethal force in defense of their lives. Nor upon reflection should these results seem surprising. Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation and great book-learning to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, "You're coming with me," her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error. There is little chance that she is going to shoot the wrong person. It is the police, because they are rarely at the scene of the crime when it occurs, who are more likely to find themselves in circumstances where guilt and innocence are not so clear-cut, and in which the probability for mistakes is higher.

Arms and liberty

Classical republican philosophy has long recognized the critical relationship between personal liberty and the possession of arms by a people ready and willing to use them. Political theorists as dissimilar as Niccolo Machiavelli, Sir Thomas More, James Harrington, Algernon Sidney, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau all shared the view that the possession of arms is vital for resisting tyranny, and that to be disarmed by one's government is tantamount to being enslaved by it. The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed. As Kates has shown, the Second Amendment is as much a product of this political philosophy as it is of the American experience in the Revolutionary War. Yet our conservative elite has abandoned this aspect of republican theory. Although our conservative pundits recognize and embrace gun owners as allies in other arenas, their battle for gun rights is desultory. The problem here is not a statist utopianism, although goodness knows that liberals are not alone in the confidence they have in the state's ability to solve society's problems. Rather, the problem seems to lie in certain cultural traits shared by our conservative and liberal elites.

One such trait is an abounding faith in the power of the word. The failure of our conservative elite to defend the Second Amendment stems in great measure from an overestimation of the power of the rights set forth in the First Amendment, and a general undervaluation of action. Implicit in calls for the repeal of the Second Amendment is the assumption that our First Amendment rights are sufficient to preserve our liberty. The belief is that liberty can be preserved as long as men freely speak their minds; that there is no tyranny or abuse that can survive being exposed in the press; and that the truth need only be disclosed for the culprits to be shamed. The people will act, and the truth shall set us, and keep us, free.

History is not kind to this belief, tending rather to support the view of Hobbes, Machiavelli, and other republican theorists that only people willing and able to defend themselves can preserve their liberties. While it may be tempting and comforting to believe that the existence of mass electronic communication has forever altered the balance of power between the state and its subjects, the belief has certainly not been tested by time, and what little history there is in the age of mass communication is not especially encouraging. The camera, radio, and press are mere tools and, like guns, can be used for good or ill. Hitler, after all, was a masterful orator, used radio to very good effect, and is well known to have pioneered and exploited the propaganda opportunities afforded by film. And then, of course, there were the Brownshirts, who knew very well how to quell dissent among intellectuals.

Polite society

In addition to being enamored of the power of words, our conservative elite shares with liberals the notion that an armed society is just not civilized or progressive, that massive gun ownership is a blot on our civilization. This association of personal disarmament with civilized behavior is one of the great unexamined beliefs of our time.

Should you read English literature from the sixteenth through nineteenth centuries, you will discover numerous references to the fact that a gentleman, especially when out at night or traveling, armed himself with a sword or a pistol against the chance of encountering a highwayman or other such predator. This does not appear to have shocked the ladies accompanying him. True, for the most part there were no police in those days, but we have already addressed the notion that the presence of the police absolves people of the responsibility to look after their safety, and in any event the existence of the police cannot be said to have reduced crime to negligible levels.

It is by no means obvious why it is "civilized" to permit oneself to fall easy prey to criminal violence, and to permit criminals to continue unobstructed in their evil ways. While it may be that a society in which crime is so rare that no one ever needs to carry a weapon is "civilized," a society that stigmatizes the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding -- because it distrusts its citizens more than it fears rapists, robbers, and murderers -- certainly cannot claim this distinction. Perhaps the notion that defending oneself with lethal force is not "civilized" arises from the view that violence is always wrong, or the view that each human being is of such intrinsic worth that it is wrong to kill anyone under any circumstances. The necessary implication of these propositions, however, is that life is not worth defending. Far from being "civilized," the beliefs that counterviolence and killing are always wrong are an invitation to the spread of barbarism. Such beliefs announce loudly and clearly that those who do not respect the lives and property of others will rule over those who do.

In truth, one who believes it wrong to arm himself against criminal violence shows contempt of God's gift of life (or, in modern parlance, does not properly value himself), does not live up to his responsibilities to his family and community, and proclaims himself mentally and morally deficient, because he does not trust himself to behave responsibly. In truth, a state that deprives its law-abiding citizens of the means to effectively defend themselves is not civilized but barbarous, becoming an accomplice of murderers, rapists, and thugs and revealing its totalitarian nature by its tacit admission that the disorganized, random havoc created by criminals is far less a threat than are men and women who believe themselves free and independent, and act accordingly.

While gun control proponents and other advocates of a kinder, gentler society incessantly decry our "armed society," in truth we do not live in an armed society. We live in a society in which violent criminals and agents of the state habitually carry weapons, and in which many law-abiding citizens own firearms but do not go about armed. Department of Justice statistics indicate that 87 percent of all violent crimes occur outside the home. Essentially, although tens of millions own firearms, we are an unarmed society.

Take back the night

Clearly the police and the courts are not providing a significant brake on criminal activity. While liberals call for more poverty, education, and drug treatment programs, conservatives take a more direct tack. George Will advocates a massive increase in the number of police and a shift toward "community-based policing." Meanwhile, the NRA and many conservative leaders call for laws that would require violent criminals serve at least 85 percent of their sentences and would place repeat offenders permanently behind bars.

Our society suffers greatly from the beliefs that only official action is legitimate and that the state is the source of our earthly salvation. Both liberal and conservative prescriptions for violent crime suffer from the "not in my job description" school of thought regarding the responsibilities of the law-abiding citizen, and from an overestimation of the ability of the state to provide society's moral moorings. As long as law-abiding citizens assume no personal responsibility for combatting crime, liberal and conservative programs will fail to contain it.

Judging by the numerous articles about concealed-carry in gun magazines, the growing number of products advertised for such purpose, and the increase in the number of concealed-carry applications in states with mandatory-issuance laws, more and more people, including growing numbers of women, are carrying firearms for self-defense. Since there are still many states in which the issuance of permits is discretionary and in which law enforcement officials routinely deny applications, many people have been put to the hard choice between protecting their lives or respecting the law. Some of these people have learned the hard way, by being the victim of a crime, or by seeing a friend or loved one raped, robbed, or murdered, that violent crime can happen to anyone, anywhere at anytime, and that crime is not about sex or property but life, liberty, and dignity.

The laws proscribing concealed-carry of firearms by honest, law-abiding citizens breed nothing but disrespect for the law. As the Founding Fathers knew well, a government that does not trust its honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens with the means of self-defense is not itself worthy of trust. Laws disarming honest citizens proclaim that the government is the master, not the servant, of the people. A federal law along the lines of the Florida statute -- overriding all contradictory state and local laws and acknowledging that the carrying of firearms by law-abiding citizens is a privilege and immunity of citizenship -- is needed to correct the outrageous conduct of state and local officials operating under discretionary licensing systems.

What we certainly do not need is more gun control. Those who call for the repeal of the Second Amendment so that we can really begin controlling firearms betray a serious misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the people, such that its repeal would legitimately confer upon government the powers otherwise proscribed. The Bill of Rights is the list of the fundamental, inalienable rights, endowed in man by his Creator, that define what it means to be a free and independent people, the rights which must exist to ensure that government governs only with the consent of the people.

At one time this was even understood by the Supreme Court. In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the first case in which the Court had an opportunity to interpret the Second Amendment, it stated that the right confirmed by the Second Amendment "is not a right granted by the constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." The repeal of the Second Amendment would no more render the outlawing of firearms legitimate than the repeal of the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment would authorize the government to imprison and kill people at will. A government that abrogates any of the Bill of Rights, with or without majoritarian approval, forever acts illegitimately, becomes tyrannical, and loses the moral right to govern.

This is the uncompromising understanding reflected in the warning that America's gun owners will not go gently into that good, utopian night: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." While liberals take this statement as evidence of the retrograde, violent nature of gun owners, we gun owners hope that liberals hold equally strong sentiments about their printing presses, word processors, and television cameras. The republic depends upon fervent devotion to all our fundamental rights.


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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:47 am
by Ferno
quite the article.

I ate it up like a starving kid at an 11 course thanksgiving dinner.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:54 am
by WarAdvocat
Wow... Very slanted article.


Which I agree with 110%.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:06 am
by Iceman
Call me lazy but I fell asleep last night while reading the 5th paragraph. Hope I can digest it later on ...

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:29 am
by Skyalmian
Kick-ass article (although it said nothing I don't already know).
FC wrote:I don't live in America. I don't own a gun. If i did, i would.
I live in the People's Socialist Republic of New Jersey. I don't own one either. :x

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:45 am
by Flabby Chick
I don't live in America. I don't own a gun. If i did, i would.

Re: A nation of cowards!

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:24 am
by Foil
I have to give the author credit for his writing ability, despite the fact that I can't say I completely agree with his overall thesis.

Take a close look at this statement, though. It seems to fit in context, but look at it a bit closer:
Jeffrey Snyder wrote:The advice not to resist a criminal assault and simply hand over the goods is founded on the notion that one's life is of incalculable value, and that no amount of property is worth it. ... Evidently, someone needs to inform the law enforcement establishment and the media that kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, and assault are not about property.
He makes a sensible point in the same paragraph about rape, but it's a bit ridiculous to then suggest that the thief who broke into my family's house must have been motivated by a sense of domination or control, rather than the value of the property.

I'm a big guy (over 6'3" 230lbs.), and I could attempt to fight back if I was getting robbed - but if I only stand to lose some of my stuff and the lives of myself and my family were not threatened, I would be an idiot to do so.

I know there have been cases of theft motivated by domination or control or revenge, but to make a blanket statement that all crimes involving theft are "not about property" is clearly extreme.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:45 am
by Stryker
I think he's pointing out in that quote that that is what should be done IF what he says is the wrong point of view is used.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:04 pm
by woodchip
With the emergence of the HIV virus, women have to reconsider rape as something to just lay back and put up with.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:10 pm
by Flabby Chick
Sh1t Woody, that's a peachy thing to say.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:08 pm
by Dedman
Foil, you weren't supposed to read that critically. You were supposed to jump on the Charlton Heston band wagon without hesitation. You get an F for this assignment :wink:

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:53 pm
by Palzon
http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm wrote:While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40
Luckily there is no constitutional right to drive drunk.

Don't try to make rational arguments for something irrational. Just be honest and say you don't care.
Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence wrote:Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
Don't try to suggest that there is no correlation between having a gun and shooting someone and not having a gun and not shooting someone.

One more thing. I'm against the death penalty. However, i could make an exception in some cases. If your child shoots themself or someone else because you didn't secure your gun - you should get the death penalty every time. (im being facetious)

edit: i'm not saying repeal the right to bear arms. I'm just saying call it what it is. a neccessary evil at best.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:33 pm
by DCrazy
Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence wrote:Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
373 / 82,431,390 = 0.005 murders / 1,000 people
151 / 32,805,041 = 0.005 murders / 1,000 people
57 / 20,090,437 = 0.003 murders / 1,000 people
19 / 127,417,244 = < 0.001 murders / 1,000 people
54 / 60,441,457 = 0.001 murders / 1,000 people
11,789 / 295,734,134 = 0.04 murders / 1,000 people

[edit]Corrected the US murder rate to 0.04 per 1000... quite different from 4...[/edit]

This results in a graph that looks something like this.

With more data points, I'd love to make a trendline. I had a page two minutes ago but I lost it and cannot seem to find it again. :(

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:21 pm
by Dedman
That's pretty cool DC. I wonder how the non-hand gun murder rate compares? Could it be that what we are seeing is that the bigger your population the more murders you have? This may hold true regardless of the weapon used.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:31 pm
by Palzon
Dedman wrote:Could it be that what we are seeing is that the bigger your population the more murders you have?

could it be that the US has 197 million firearms? Nah...i must be crazy. :roll:

:P

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:47 pm
by DCrazy
Well at first blush the graph appears to be normal, since it looks pretty much linear. Unfortunately, there's only one high data point. I need more countries with populations near that of the US to make an accurate trend.

Keep in mind that this graph says nothing about the actual murder rates, only those committed with guns. I'm having a bit of trouble finding non-biased data sources, since not all countries keep tabs on these things in the same clear way the FBI does.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:57 pm
by will_kill
one of the best articles I have read in a really, really long time. Great post! :)

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:59 pm
by Stryker
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

Some more reference points for you.

Brazil beat out the US in that chart by approximately 7 in the firearm homicide rate--which is pretty incredible, considering that the US firearm homicide rate was 3.52 or something. North Ireland and Estonia also beat out the US by quite a bit.

Edit: On reading a bit more closely, it also seems that the latest date I can see on that page is 2001. The facts might be slightly skewed there.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

Another reference from that page, this one seems to have dates too.

Columbia is off the charts.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:00 pm
by Mobius
Here's a good idea: issue every new born child with a hand gun! Make everyone members of the NRA. Train kids in gun use beginning at elementary school, and pass laws requiring all persons to carry a hand gun at all times - kind of like carrying your drivers licence.

By this logic, violent crime would become a thing of the past in the USA.

And if you believe that'd happen, I have a bridge for sale. Email me for details.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:13 pm
by Palzon
Stryker wrote:...Columbia is off the charts.
what is your point exactly?

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:45 pm
by Gooberman
"There are lies, damned lies, and then statistics." -Mark Twain

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:06 pm
by DCrazy
Thank you very much Stryker, that was the page I was looking for. :D

Here's what the chart looks like now. The black line is a linear trendline. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing much good. So much for the idea that gun violence is closely related to population.

Right now I'm hunting for state-by-state gun ownership percentatages. That might give a better idea of the ownership-to-violence ratio, at least as it applies in this country.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:10 pm
by Fusion pimp
Amazing how quickly the point of the article has gone by the wayside.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:33 pm
by Stryker
Palzon wrote:what is your point exactly?
No point, just pointing it out.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:49 pm
by WarAdvocat
When unable to debate....

Obfuscate

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:06 pm
by Dedman
Palzon wrote:
Dedman wrote:Could it be that what we are seeing is that the bigger your population the more murders you have?

could it be that the US has 197 million firearms? Nah...i must be crazy. :roll:

:P
Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. I don't know. Guns don't cause people to kill. I would be interested in seeing the per capita non-firearm murder rates of different contries compared to the per capita firearm related murder rates of those same countries. I would also like to see a comparison of firearm related deaths from actual murder and self defense.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:10 pm
by Dedman
Mobius wrote:Here's a good idea: issue every new born child with a hand gun! Make everyone members of the NRA. Train kids in gun use beginning at elementary school, and pass laws requiring all persons to carry a hand gun at all times - kind of like carrying your drivers licence.

By this logic, violent crime would become a thing of the past in the USA.

And if you believe that'd happen, I have a bridge for sale. Email me for details.
While a bit far fetched, it may work. There are counties here in Georgia that have mandatory gun ownership laws on the books. These counties have some of the lower violent crime rates in the state. While I realize that correlation is not causation, it is at least as strong an argument as "guns cause people to kill people".

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:55 pm
by woodchip
Mobius wrote:And if you believe that'd happen, I have a bridge for sale. Email me for details.
Start righting up the bill of sale. For Dcrazy's graphing there is a more salient way to look at it. In recent years 38 states issued relaxed conceal carry license requirements, Michigan being one of them. Of the 100,000+ licenses issued there have been no felony arrests of a license holder using his firearm in a deliterious manner. So a interesting graph would compare legally licensed firearm persons with the non licensed person. Licensed holders have to go through a training program both in law and use so Mobi's tongue in cheek comment really does have merit. Train all children in safe firearm handling and the laws there-in and I suspect most of the kids will grow up with less of a desire to use a firearm wrong fully.
Oh and Dcrazy...look up Dr. John Lott and you will find some interesting statistics.

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:04 pm
by Skyalmian
Mobius wrote:Here's a good idea: issue every new born child with a hand gun! Make everyone members of the NRA. Train kids in gun use beginning at elementary school, and pass laws requiring all persons to carry a hand gun at all times - kind of like carrying your drivers licence.

By this logic, violent crime would become a thing of the past in the USA.

And if you believe that'd happen, I have a bridge for sale. Email me for details.
What you just said is what exactly would happen, and also happens to be the dream of all Right to Self-Defense people because they know it, too.

Post the details on that bridge you have for sale.
Woodchip wrote:Oh and Dcrazy...look up Dr. John Lott and you will find some interesting statistics.
While he is at it, he can look up the statistics on how much gun violence is the direct result of gangs...

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:12 pm
by Fusion pimp
Don't try to make rational arguments for something irrational. Just be honest and say you don't care.
Who were you talking to, Pally?

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:27 pm
by Palzon
Fusion pimp wrote:Who were you talking to, Pally?
anyone who will listen :P

actually i was addressing the author who was suggesting that its not good, law abiding citizens who are peddling guns to bank robbers.

i have a hard time getting by the bottom line of around 30,000 yearly gun deaths in the US. Any way you slice it, gun proliferation contributes to gun deaths.

as i said, i suppose it is a neccessary evil. i don't want the 2nd ammendment repealed. we may need a revolution some day.

but i would be happier if there were extremely strict enforcement regarding gun laws. there are a lot of stupid yahoos out there who really don't need a gun.
woodchip wrote:Of the 100,000+ licenses issued there have been no felony arrests of a license holder using his firearm in a deliterious manner.
i'd like to see the link to this stat.
dedman wrote:I would be interested in seeing the per capita non-firearm murder rates of different contries...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
dedman wrote: ...compared to the per capita firearm related murder rates of those same countries...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:03 pm
by Fusion pimp
i have a hard time getting by the bottom line of around 30,000 yearly gun deaths in the US. Any way you slice it, gun proliferation contributes to gun deaths.

as i said, i suppose it is a neccessary evil. i don't want the 2nd ammendment repealed. we may need a revolution some day.

but i would be happier if there were extremely strict enforcement regarding gun laws. there are a lot of stupid yahoos out there who really don't need a gun.
30,000 firearm related deaths are a lot,but, consider that there are over 42,000 auto related deaths each year. Should we have tougher restrictions of autos? Anyone over the age of 16(in Cali) can get a DL, but you cannot get a handgun until the age of 21.To purchase a handgun in the state of California you must pass a basic saftey test and a background evaluation/clearance(this is so with all states). There are more firearm laws on the books that apply to firearm owners than there are driving laws that apply to the average driver.(for instance, there are firearm laws that only apply to FFL holders and there are driving laws that only apply to class A drivers). What law( or set of laws) can you think of that would prevent firearm related deaths? I'm seriously curious.

Let's face it, a death is a death and I don't want to see anyone die by auto or firearm. But, as you said, both are neccessary evils. How CAN we prevent firearm related deaths? I'm all ears.I am trying to do my part by being a licensed firearm instructor and teaching people how to properly use, store and handle a firearm safely. Do I think that most firearm owners are safe and knowledgable? Yes! at least the hundreds a year I deal with. Have a run into folks that shouldn't own firearms regardless of whether they clear the background check? Yep, I've refused to sell them firearms and the owner of the store totally backed me despite losing a sale(in case you didn't know, I work for a friend part-time who owns a firearm store).Hell, I wouldn't sell some of them a screwdriver! There will always be abuse as long as there's a method and there really is no way of stopping the abusers which are the minority. Punishing the majority with more strict laws is not the answer. Laws only work on those who are willing to obey them... they call them criminals for a reason. :)

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:48 pm
by Gooberman
30,000 firearm related deaths are a lot,but, consider that there are over 42,000 auto related deaths each year. Should we have tougher restrictions of autos? Anyone over the age of 16(in Cali) can get a DL, but you cannot get a handgun until the age of 21.To purchase a handgun in the state of California you must pass a basic saftey test and a background evaluation/clearance(this is so with all states). There are more firearm laws on the books that apply to firearm owners than there are driving laws that apply to the average driver
You just can't compare those numbers like that, it's misleading. The time spent by the 'average' American driving is probably a magnitude of hundreds of thousands greater then shooting (since alot of Americans just don't shoot period). One activity is done with a much higher frequency, and duration, then the other.

It's akin to claiming that poising the water of a small town is less dangerous then swimming.

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:56 pm
by Fusion pimp
The time spent by the 'average' American driving is probably a magnitude of hundreds of thousands greater then shooting (since alot of Americans just don't shoot period).
I'm not going to split hairs, Goob. The point is there are thousands of deaths from firearms and from cars and regulation is not the answer. We can all plainly see how well firearms laws have worked in the past from preventing firearm related deaths. Most of which are/were not accidents, rather, they were intentional mis-uses. How do you regulate behavior? You've heard the cliches-
Guns kill people like pencils make spelling errors.
and my personal favorite
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie to be overweight.
While these little catch-phrases are overused(yes, I'll admit, by my side), they are very true and perfect analogies. They're putting blame on the tool instead of the behavior. We all know that if we ban/regulate spoons Rosie will still eat..probably not with a spoon, though.
The focus of the problem has shifted and we need to somehow shift it back so that people will take responsibility for their actions, rather than blaming a tool. We, as a society, are masters at shifting blame and creating victims from criminals. We've been able to separate the criminal from the crime by finding a source/cause for the bahvior and placing blame on that instead of the criminal itself.
I dunno, Goob.. maybe I'm the one who's messed-up because I just can't see it any other way.

B-

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:30 pm
by Skyalmian
Palzon wrote:Kellerman
I've seen that name before.
The "43 times" fallacy

We have all heard that "a gunowner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than intruder." How did this fallacy start? In a 1985 article in the New England Journal of Medicine, Drs. Kellerman and Reay described the proper way to calulate how many people are saved by guns compared to how many are hurt by guns. The benefits should include, in the author's own words, "cases in which burglars or intruders are wounded or frightened away by the use or display of a firearm (and) cases in which would be intruders may have purposely avoided a house known to be armed..."

However, when Kellerman and Reay calculated their comparison, they did not include those cases, they only counted the times a homeowner killed the criminal. Because only 0.1% (1 in 1,000) of defensive gun useage involves the death of the criminal, Kellerman and Reay understated the protective benefits of firearms by a factor of 1,000! They turned the truth on its head! Why? Kellerman emotionally confessed his anti-gun prejudice at the 1993 HELP Conference.

Honest analysis, even by Kellerman and Reay's own standards, show the "43 times" comparison to be superficially appealing, but actually a deceitful contrivance - unfortunately, a lie that is parroted by the well-funded, gun prohibition lobby and by gullible and biased journalists.
I did a 5-second check to make sure the "Kellerman" you mentioned and the "Kellerman" in this quote were the same, and they appear to be. Be careful what statistics you quote, because when it comes to gun control, there is a lot of false information out there, and it's almost always from the Anti's side. The Brady Bunch Campaign is another.

URL for the above unavailable, because I copied that quote chunk out of an HTML document I saved to my hard drive on June 13. I save a lot of internet pages I know I'll find useful in the future.

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:35 pm
by Gooberman
But, you do see it our way.
Have a run into folks that shouldn't own firearms regardless of whether they clear the background check? Yep, I've refused to sell them firearms and the owner of the store totally backed me despite losing a sale(in case you didn't know, I work for a friend part-time who owns a firearm store).
You are doing, exactly what the government is trying to do. I've met you, I've read a large percent of what you write here on this issue, and I'd trust you to make this call. But I don't trust every gun seller to make this same call.

These same people who you refuse to sell firearms, can obtain positions selling fire arms to others. Thats why I support institutionalizing a basic minimal standard. This is like 99.9% of my support of 'gun control.' Just because you can't get them all, doesn't mean you just don't try.

I am against gun elimination, but I am for gun control.

The exact kind of gun control, that you do.

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:55 pm
by Fusion pimp
Okay, I'll clear-up my position so I'm not mis-understood.

I believe everyone has the right to own a firearm if they so chose. I also believe that some people shouldn't own firearms. The people who shouldn't are the people who, in the past, have proven by their actions that they are not responsible. Whether that be due to mental disorders or criminal prosecution.These are who I believe the government should restrict from owning firearms.
The problem is, they're already criminals and most are probably not going to try to purchase one through legal means, which nullifies any new or existing laws.. thus, making any new or existing restriction ineffective.
This is exactly where we disagree. With thousands upon thousands existing firearms laws on the book, they're still not stopping the criminals from getting them. Shall we simply make more laws that don't work? The problem as I see it, is, any new or existing laws don't stop the criminals, they stop me.. the guy who choses to obey the law. They're punishing me(the majority) for the action of a few(the minority). Essentially, I'm suffering because of their actions and their actions aren't changing, but mine(the guy who's done nothing wrong) are being forced to change. If I had to wait a bit longer, or jump through another hoop for something that worked.. I swear, I'd be all for it.
New laws *sound* great, but they're feel-good-legislation. There is just no way of stopping most criminals from getting firearms by making more laws. Hell, we have what's called a DROS system at the shop. Everyone who buys a firearm has to have his/her information put into the DOJ computer(done at the shop and sent via secure computer system to DOJ) and they have to wait 10 days for their background check. It is a felony to attempt to purchase a firearm if you're restricted from having them.. that doesn't even stop them, they still come in and attempt to purchase firearms. We have what's called a "review and correct" tab on the DROS system that DOJ uses to notify us of any "do not release" situations and I check them every morning when I first come in. When we get a "do not release" it's always followed up by a phone call from a DOJ agent making sure we got it prior to the date the customer can pick-up his firearm. We tell every customer point blank before we fill out any paperwork- "if you're restricted from owning a firearm we will return the firearm to our stock, charge you 20%(because we have to sell it as used now) and turn over the paperwork to the D.A for prosecution".. know what? They still try... I've had 3 "do not release" notifications in the past month and a half. They ***know*** they can't own a firearm, but they don't care, the law does not stop them and there isn't any new law you can make that deter them from trying.
Sounds good, huh? We stopped 3 criminals from coming in and buying firearms... nice work, Barry/DOJ!
Wrong! They simply go to another shop and have their GF, friend or family member buy the firearm for them, which is another felony.

Here's how it goes-
Customer wants a firearm.
They're required to fill out a 4473 form with all their info, including where they were born, etc. They have to submit proof of residence, a valid DL and a handgun saftey certificate, prior to even filling out the two page sheet.Once we get the 4473 filled out....
Then we take their DL and swipe it through the DROS system that enters all their info.. again. We also have to enter the type of firearm, serial number, caliber, color, make, model, etc..
Print out 3 copies of the DROS form, take their fingerprints and have them sign all 3 copies.
Copy their DL, Proof of residence and saftey certificate on the DROS form.. this take a solid 20 minutes and we cannot have a error rate of more than 1%. An error could be the customer forgetting to check "N/A" under the box that asks for the INS number.. basically, we have to read over the whole form before the customer leaves.
Then we take the firearm and store it for 10 days while we wait for DOJ to approve the transaction.
Once they do, we have to log where the firearm came from, who it went to in what's called an A & D book.

Then we have to mail a copy to the local P.D just in case the guy's in trouble locally and his prosecution is still in the pipes because DOJ doesn't know about it yet.

Ten days is up.. customer comes to pick up his firearm-
We have to give a safe handling demo with the customer, make them sign an affidavit saying that he has a California approved lock-box or locking device, have him sign the back of the 4473 and DROS form verifying he's picked up his firearm.

Guy's gone... firearms gone.

We spend another 10 minutes or so filling out the back of the 4473 to close the transaction, it basically asks for the DROS #, Who released it, who sold it, what date it was entered, what date it was released and so on.

We have to make 2 copies of the 4473 and file one in the 4473 book cross referencing the DROS form number, log the firearm out of the A&D book, wait for the cleared copy of the DROS to come back from the P.D and file it in a separete book(if there was a problem they would call us within the 10 days and before the customer picks up the firearm) Take the other two copies of the DROS, mail one to DOJ and file the other in another book.

We have 6 books that every firearm in the store is logged into from the time we receive it to the time it leaves out store.

Now, you want to hear about the 356 page book of firearm regulations we have to know and follow? One mistake and they'll pull your FFL(ability to sell firearms).. and yes, literally one mistake.. they are that strict.

I typed this all out because i don't think most people realize what actually goes into buying a firearm.. how much paperwork, check-check-double-check. It's a nightmare!! But, it really leaves no stone unturned with respect to preventing criminals from attempting to legally obtain a firearm. Sans all the paperwork on our part, it really is a pretty good system.

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:57 am
by woodchip
Gooberman wrote:
30,000 firearm related deaths are a lot,but, consider that there are over 42,000 auto related deaths each year. Should we have tougher restrictions of autos? Anyone over the age of 16(in Cali) can get a DL, but you cannot get a handgun until the age of 21.To purchase a handgun in the state of California you must pass a basic saftey test and a background evaluation/clearance(this is so with all states). There are more firearm laws on the books that apply to firearm owners than there are driving laws that apply to the average driver
You just can't compare those numbers like that, it's misleading. The time spent by the 'average' American driving is probably a magnitude of hundreds of thousands greater then shooting (since alot of Americans just don't shoot period). One activity is done with a much higher frequency, and duration, then the other.

It's akin to claiming that poising the water of a small town is less dangerous then swimming.
Thats one way of looking at it Goob. OTOH how do you define "using"? I carry my pistol with me 10-12 hours a day. I drive maybe 2 hours. Saying that you are using a firearm as being defined as "shooting" it is not a good analogy. When a hunter goes into the woods, he may only shoot his rifle once but was hunting with it for days on end. Got to dig deeper m'boy.