DescentBB

http://www.reandev.com/taliban/

some interesting quotes there...

Don't be so naive and consider the source. It's made up sh1t. You should think before you post sh1t like this and make a fool of yourself. I could post this sh1t on my own website and pass it off as fact and a million internet news junkies looking for political ammunition would believe it.

Now that was inflamatory.
Most people in America that I know, who are Christian don't hold those views or anything close to them.
I believe Bush was elected president not because God said so, but because we needed a president who could dish out some good ol'e woop *ss after 9/11. Normally I am against war but after 9/11 and the responce from the Taliban that we better just accept it or more attacks will follow and we deserved what happened to the Towers was too much to swallow.

I voted Bush and stand behind this choice %100. Although now it is time for his type to go and put a peace negeater/book keeper in.

If it were radical Muslim leaders being quoted you would just believe it. But since it implicates American political and religious leaders you must question the source. How novel.

All forms of extremism are misguided. Muslims don't have that market cornered.

Extremist Christians are JUST AS DANGEROUS as extremist Muslims, make no mistake.

The disturbing thing is, the USA is becoming increasingly extremist Christian, and if you follow what's happened in Muslim countries, you begin to appreciate what happens when fundamentalists step over the mark. It doesn't matter if it's in Indonesia or the USA: the results are the same.

Mobius wrote:All forms of extremism are misguided. Muslims don't have that market cornered.

Extremist Christians are JUST AS DANGEROUS as extremist Muslims, make no mistake.

The disturbing thing is, the USA is becoming increasingly extremist Christian, and if you follow what's happened in Muslim countries, you begin to appreciate what happens when fundamentalists step over the mark. It doesn't matter if it's in Indonesia or the USA: the results are the same.

For once, I completely agree with Mobius.

hey Ice, I hate to break it to you. but I was able to get a hit on at least one quote.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam" was found here, here, and here

OH NO! THE WASHINGTON POST SPEAKS! THAT MEANS ITS GOTTA BE TRUE!

Look, if you want to discredit the right, find some concrete information ... Something that you can prove to be true instead of some wanna-be's ramblings. Constantly bringing up this sh1t just weakens your cause because it makes you look stoopid.

Do you have any clue who Abu Mazen is? He has about as much clout as a fat pig with Syphilis.

Mobius wrote:All forms of extremism are misguided. Muslims don't have that market cornered.

Extremist Christians are JUST AS DANGEROUS as extremist Muslims, make no mistake.

The disturbing thing is, the USA is becoming increasingly extremist Christian, and if you follow what's happened in Muslim countries, you begin to appreciate what happens when fundamentalists step over the mark. It doesn't matter if it's in Indonesia or the USA: the results are the same.

TheCope wrote:If it were radical Muslim leaders being quoted you would just believe it. But since it implicates American political and religious leaders you must question the source. How novel.

Both these posts hit the nail right on the head.

Iceman wrote:OH NO! THE WASHINGTON POST SPEAKS! THAT MEANS ITS GOTTA BE TRUE!

Look, if you want to discredit the right, find some concrete information ... Something that you can prove to be true instead of some wanna-be's ramblings. Constantly bringing up this sh1t just weakens your cause because it makes you look stoopid.

And where's your proof to the contrary? All I see from you is a couple of ranting posts without any substance.

the intent wasn't to 'discredit', but rather to show it's not made up bs as you believe.

"Look, if you want to discredit [one side], find some concrete information ... Something that you can prove to be true instead of some wanna-be's ramblings. Constantly bringing up this sh1t just weakens your cause because it makes you look stoopid."

you first.

TheCope wrote:If it were radical Muslim leaders being quoted you would just believe it. But since it implicates American political and religious leaders you must question the source. How novel.

That's bu11sh1t, I wouldn't do that and you have no right to claim that I would since you don't even know me. There are many in the media that would offer completely false information about any party of people simply to advance their own agenda. Consider all the sources all the time ...

Ferno, MD-2389, he's upset because it's heavy damage to his ego, to the side he thinks is better than all others. Tearing down a person's importance turns that person into a raving, enraged monster.

You seriousely think that's all BS ? You gotta be kidding.

Iceman wrote:That's bu11sh1t, I wouldn't do that and you have no right to claim that I would since you don't even know me. There are many in the media that would offer completely false information about any party of people simply to advance their own agenda. Consider all the sources all the time ...

Oh really? Where's your supporting evidence? What proof do you have that radical christians aren't just as bad as the radical muslims?

Somehow I don't see you making this big a stink if we were talking about the "muslim taliban". However, since the site Haag quoted is attacking radical christians, you're up in arms like its the worst thing that ever happened. What's wrong with THAT picture?

Iceman wrote:That's bu11sh1t, I wouldn't do that and you have no right to claim that I would since you don't even know me. There are many in the media that would offer completely false information about any party of people simply to advance their own agenda. Consider all the sources all the time ...

including the side that you're on. never forget that.

attacking someone's character, be it personally or the side he's on; is a weakness in debating. it is an indication that the opponent is lacking evidence and is using fearmongering to advance his case.

Iceman wrote:

TheCope wrote:If it were radical Muslim leaders being quoted you would just believe it. But since it implicates American political and religious leaders you must question the source. How novel.

That's bu11sh1t, I wouldn't do that and you have no right to claim that I would since you don't even know me. There are many in the media that would offer completely false information about any party of people simply to advance their own agenda. Consider all the sources all the time ...

Hey, I agree that you should consider all sources... that seemed like a very slanted web page with its asterisk-ridden commentary. But I didn't name your name Ice. I said "you" which could mean many people on the dbb. I mean, people quote blogs around here to prove their point, what a joke.

I stand by what I typed.

Who's more volatile? Those selected quotes? Or the posts in this thread?

Mobius has a point, but is missing the mark, I think. I remember the Waco, TX ordeal that happened some 12 years ago... that was an example of extreme "christianity." It's true that extremeism isn't good, but it doesn't always yield violence, or really damage to anything other than egos and feelings. From a Christian's perspective, any "believers" that hold to violence as part of their beliefs (or abuse, for that matter) would not be true christians, but members of a cult. The Koran teaches that Jihad is an appropriate thing, and in fact that those who die fighting for the faith will be greatly rewarded. The Bible never makes any mention of holy war. The extensive wars that anchient Israel had where territory related, not belief related. The Israelites believe that the land is given to them by God, but they are never encouraged to kill people for their lack of belief. In fact, the law given to the Israelites taught them to treat aliens particularly well. Any terrorist act done by a "Christian" would be considered a blatent deviation from all the the Bible teaches.

As far as wars go, what extremist Islams are doing with terrorist acts, and what the U.S. is doing following the rules of war are very different things. The former involves targetting civilians, while the latter involves targetting combatants, and no one can validly claim to compare the two.

MD-2389 wrote:Oh really? Where's your supporting evidence? What proof do you have that radical christians aren't just as bad as the radical muslims?

First, a nut, no matter what he claims to be, is dangerous, but neither does he properly represent anything but the murdering nutjob's association.

Second, your proof lies in my previous post. Any terrorist "Christian" is a contradiction in terms. No truly devout Christian would commit a terrorist act, because it contradicts the Bible's teachings. The same isn't necessarily true for Muslims. So, conservative Christians say some things that arn't exactly politically correct, but they never purposely crashed any planes into any buildings killing thousands. Those that do commit terrorist acts in the name of Christianity would be denounced and condemned by those same leaders who are quoted on that page.

hey snoopy, what does the bible tell followers to do about heretics?

Ferno wrote:hey snoopy, what does the bible tell followers to do about heretics?

Try to convert them. Love them (but not necessarily what they do) no matter what their beliefs might be.

and what if they dont' want to be converted?

Ferno wrote:and what if they dont' want to be converted?

Burn Them!!! [Monty Python /]

It would be nice if these quotes contained detailed attributions. If you're going to go to all the trouble to put together a page with all this stuff, then some references would be nice - if you want to convince me of something, then make it easy for me to do the analysis.

Isn't it great that we can live in a free country where we can have all this diversity of opinion and still all get along. WOW!

ice i didnt say that i believe all of them, i didnt say they were all real.

i merely posted the site for the sake of posting the site.

i have many religious friends; so lets not get the idea that im anti-religious (as much of the anti-christ i may be ).

Ferno wrote:and what if they dont' want to be converted?

In new testiment, if all else fails you leave them alone. .. You don't declare Jihad and vow to destroy all who oppose you.

or are you going to pull the "Crusades" card out.

i've heard enough ★■◆● from average-joe-america-online to believe that any or all of these quotes are absolutely true.
so what. i'd find as many idiots in my own country, whoop-de-do.

oh yeah, we're talking about religious sterotypes, not national. hmm.

★■◆● man don't ask me about this subject, i'm bitter but i know it .


anyway the link is being discussed in snopes forums if you wanna take a peak:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ulti ... 9/p/1.html
http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ulti ... 8/p/1.html

Ferno wrote:hey snoopy, what does the bible tell followers to do about heretics?

I have yet to hear any christian in a position of leadership (priests, rabbi's, ministers) say that Islam is evil and it is our christian responsibility to kill muslums. End of discussion.

Duper: well it happened. a bunch of idiots figured it was a good idea to kill those who didn't believe in christianity.

Woody; isn't Jerry Vines in a position of leadership? Sure he didn't call for followers to kill muslims, but he did denounce Islam as evil.

Duper wrote:

Ferno wrote:and what if they dont' want to be converted?

In new testiment, if all else fails you leave them alone. .. You don't declare Jihad and vow to destroy all who oppose you.

or are you going to pull the "Crusades" card out.

Tell that to the southern babtists that show up every weekend trying to get me to come to their stupid church. Bunch of dis-respectful pricks. Apparently telling them that I'm an athiest made me their pet project.

Iceman wrote:Don't be so naive and consider the source. It's made up sh1t. You should think before you post sh1t like this and make a fool of yourself. I could post this sh1t on my own website and pass it off as fact and a million internet news junkies looking for political ammunition would believe it.

lol you made a fool of yourself, how ironic.

A few scattered points (but I'm still on vacation from the DBB, so don't expect me to stick around):

1) I'm surprised at how bad the quality of discussion has become on this board. Wow! Mobi is acting as expected, but many of the rest of you can do better.

2) There are extremists who claim just about every label under the sun, and they're all dangerous. Stalin, Osama, and David Duke are just 3 examples of extremists with 3 different religious labels. On the other hand, not all ideologies are equal; some promote extremism by their very nature, while others only become extreme when they're warped beyond recognition. Snoopy made a good argument along these lines, and it's a shame so many of you dodged the point.

3) The GWB quote being argued about is a "the news said that Abu Mazen said that George Bush said..." quote. Abu Mazen is the weakest link in the chain. If the WaPo reported directly that GWB had said that, I'd take it seriously, but telling me what Abu Mazen claims GWB says is about as convincing as telling me what Mobi claims the Bible says. If you want to know if the quote is correct, go back to the source. (A Bush administration spokesman says it's a false quote.) At least that one quote probably is "made-up sh1t".

4) The worst quotes on that page are coming from known idiots. Fred Phelps, for example, is widely considered a cult leader. Pat Robertson is not widely respected (though he may have been in the past; I don't know.) These are people who are regularly criticized by mainstream Christians (as well as by non-Christians, Republicans, Democrats, etc.) These quotes aren't "made-up sh1t", they're just quotes of people we all can agree are morons.

5) Most of the quotes on that page from actual respected figures are missing context (such as links to transcripts or articles) so I couldn't say whether they're reasonable or not. The Dr. Laura quote, for example, could be either very stupid or entirely reasonable, depending on when she said it and about what specific situation. The quotes aren't made-up, but some of them are framed in intentionally misleading ways (like, the Rehnquist quote.) I have no reason to doubt the veracity of most of these quotes, but I doubt the page's author understood the quotes as they were originally intended, and he obviously didn't provide the reader with enough information to fairly interpret the quotes.

6) The Bible doesn't say "try to convert people a few times and kill them", nor does it say "try to convert them a few times and then give up". It doesn't really give any sort of timeline or process; it just says "go and make disciples". People are supposed to do so in a way that's compatible with the rest of Jesus' teachings, but unfortunately, that concept seems to be lost on some people (such as MD's stalkers.)

7) Cops makes the point that people believe these types of quotes coming from Muslim leaders more easily than they believe them coming from Christian leaders. I refer him to my point #4, and note that a number of Muslim leaders also qualify as "known idiots". If someone claims Fred Phelps, Osama, Abu Mazen, Mobi, or even some previously-unknown-to-me Imam said something outrageous, I'll believe it with little hesitation, because I know those people say a lot of outrageous things. If someone claims Rehnquist, Reagan, C.S. Lewis, or Sirian said something outrageous, I'll ask for a transcript, because those people tend not to say outrageous things.

Edited.

Ferno wrote:Duper: well it happened. a bunch of idiots figured it was a good idea to kill those who didn't believe in christianity.

Yep, sure did. Yet another reason why it's always wise to remember the distinction between the Vatican and Christianity... they don't always have the same motives.

In some ways, the Crusades were kind of like eco-terrorism; taking a good thing way, way too far.