DescentBB

( Note: Before I start, I would just like to say that certain points presented here is stuff that is "as far to my knowledge to be truth." Everything under this category is up for correction, which means stuff that I present as truth that actually isn't I would like to have corrected. I also include my opinion, which is not up for correction, but debate. I try to clearly draw the line between my opinion, and what I think is truth. Also, I will not take offense to anyone's opinion about Jews if it is derogatory, as long as it has a fair basis.)

What did we do? Recently there have been posts about racist girls hating on Jews (it seems extreme racism can sometimes come hand in hand with disliking Jews) and all these Christian quotes hating on Jews too. I was just thinking, from these, that this is not an uncommon trend in the world.

Why? I know that Jewish belief says that we are Gods people, but personally I do not think I'm better than the next (Christian, Muslim, etc) guy. Other from that point, why do people dislike Jews so much? And if people don't like Jews because we say we are better than everyone (assumption), what about many other people (nowadays) who say the Jews are actually [italics] worse [/italics] than everyone, and everything is the fault of Jews and Blacks? Please, if there are any other REAL reasons to dislike us, tell me. I will not take offense.

If you read Haangen Dazs' (spelled right?) post, called Christian Taliban, you see that a Christian person is actually saying (and I am assuming the quotes presented are true) that God will not answer the prayer of a Jew. Well... to Christians, Jesus was God's son right? And as far as to my knowledge, Jesus was a Jew, because there was no such thing as Christianity before Jesus. So is Bailey Smith saying God won't accept his own son? WTF is that? And for every Christian saying sh1t about Jews, their main man was Jewish right? Isn't that a little messed up too?

I think Jew hating has kind of become as common as racism, where people make certain assumptions based on something about the person. I can understand a little racism, for the jokes, but serious disliking and belief of stereotypes does not appear to be healthy. Why do people let themselves get into these stupid assumptions based on religion? There are shortfalls to every religion, but you only point out certain aspects you don't like about certain ones?

Bleghhhh. So many other points to be made, but I'll start with that. And again, please take this as a valid topic and not another complaining Jewbag. I would really like what people think on this presented, whether harsh or not. I can take it. I just want to get some insight.

Oh yeah, I've heard of a new meaning for "Jew." It is a verb now, which means to "rip someone off." Isn't that just great?

Some of the reason would be that they were persecuted because "THEY KILLED JESUS! BURN!" type attitudes of earlier times, esp. that of, say, Spain. This might be still sticking around with some fundies...

Jews are wankers, i'd never let one in the house.

the jews didn't mean to kill jesus. they only meant to scare him

Money i hope i didn't offend you with that remark i made concerning Jews and cash, you were ment to laugh. coz, you know, stereotypes are stupid.

Money are you Jewish by heritage, religion, or both? i'm not certain which you are referring to.
i'm pretty clueless when it comes to Jews, i don't think i know ANY Jewish (religion) ppl.

Oh and something that has always confused me: why are they called Jews and not Israelis? Where did the word "Jew" even come from? *shrug*.

The only possible reason i could think of for hating Israelis would be because as a nation they seem violent and militaristic - and have close ties with America which is similar. Arabs seem to hate Israel.

But that's prettymuch talking about a nation - politics. not individual Joe-Shmoe Israelis.
I've heard a lot of theorys from nazis as to "why" to hate Jews - they control all the money and blahblahblah. It seems they are talking more about a culture than actual blood heritage.
Boil it down and i don't see any solid reason to dislike Jews.

You're Jewish, shouldn't you know more about this than us?

Flabby Chick wrote:Jews are wankers, i'd never let one in the house.

Money, since you are new. Flabby Chick lives in Israel

I wouldn't be too concerned. The Christians, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, wiccans, Mormans, neo-pagans, etc. are all hated too. Don't worry. There's enough hate to go all the world around.

Awwww Roidi....you're no fun

...Zionism?

I've wondered this too.
No one's mentioned the Holocaust yet, my understanding is that jews tended to be in much higher positions moneywise than your average german and Hitler's radical ideas involved of an empowerment of the impoverished to restore the country. Sorta making the jews into a scapegoat for the complete economic disrepair of germany after WWI. Once he got into power however, he eventually decided that it wasn't enough just to oust jews from high positions they needed to just be eliminated... rather disturbing how far people will go behind a leader who's earned their trust.

geeze there's a lot to read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anti-Semitism

Money! wrote:I think Jew hating has kind of become as common as racism,

I always thought it was racism. Well isn't it?

Money! wrote:I can understand a little racism, for the jokes, but serious disliking and belief of stereotypes does not appear to be healthy.

The only Jewish related joke i can think of is this anti-joke:

Q: What's worse than finding a worm in your apple?
A: The Holocaust


The great thing is that no matter how much some small group of people hates Jews... modern society hates racism way more.

I kinda thought that white supremists hated black people #1, and then all other racial minoritys after that, incl Jews. Seriously, isn't hating ALL minoritys the only quazi-logical reason for anyone to hate jews? oh, becides that Hitler told them to.

Money, you live in America, where there must be lot of Jews coz Jewish culture there is really strong. But here in Australia, it's no-where near as prominent. As a Jew i think you'd just fit into the catagory of "ethnic heritage", and wouldn't particularly stand out on your own. The only ppl to hate you would be ppl who hate everyone.

When i hear someone say "Jew" i first think they are talking about "Dew" - water that collects on plants in high humidity. That's how unfamilure i am with hearing the word.

There has been a perception, I think, that the Jewish mindset is scheming, greedy for money, and does not care about others (save maybe the family). I don't know why though, and can not really see whether it would be the case.

I'm curious to know

What are the Jewish beliefs concerning Jesus? And what are the other beliefs that make them different from Christianity?

Admiral Thrawn wrote:What are the Jewish beliefs concerning Jesus?

From what I recall (most of my knowledge of Judaism is from a few textbooks and some Jewish (religion) friends, so I'm hardly an expert), they view Jesus as just another in a long line of prophets, while of course Christians view him as the Messiah (who the Jews still wait for).

I think the closest thing to the right answer would have something about, "developmental evolutionary gaps in a cultural/social groups self-esteem".

Wow, alot of posts. Thanks guys. And let me remind you, my POV is that of an American, so things might be different elsewhere.

Samuel Dravis wrote:Some of the reason would be that they were persecuted because "THEY KILLED JESUS! BURN!" type attitudes of earlier times, esp. that of, say, Spain. This might be still sticking around with some fundies...

Truthfully, as far to my knowledge, the Romans killed Jesus. At least that is what I learned in History class and a few other textbooks.

roid wrote:Money i hope i didn't offend you with that remark i made concerning Jews and cash, you were ment to laugh. coz, you know, stereotypes are stupid.

Trust me, I can take a joke. I do not mind Jewish jokes at all. This post was spurned by the seriousness I have been noticing about some Jew hating.

roid wrote:Money are you Jewish by heritage, religion, or both? i'm not certain which you are referring to.
i'm pretty clueless when it comes to Jews, i don't think i know ANY Jewish (religion) ppl.

The only possible reason i could think of for hating Israelis would be because as a nation they seem violent and militaristic - and have close ties with America which is similar. Arabs seem to hate Israel.

Im Jewish by heritage and religion.

And I do not think all Israelis are warlike, which is kinda the whole point of this post... generalization is killing things. I know Jews that are some of the most generous and kind people I know.

Jeff250 wrote:I wouldn't be too concerned. The Christians, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, wiccans, Mormans, neo-pagans, etc. are all hated too. Don't worry. There's enough hate to go all the world around.

You gotta admit it seems like we take a little more sh1t than the Christians. I think I'll play the Holocaust card here.

Good point Jon, rather along the lines of my thought.

Sirius wrote:There has been a perception, I think, that the Jewish mindset is scheming, greedy for money, and does not care about others (save maybe the family). I don't know why though, and can not really see whether it would be the case.

I can see this mindset, because the stereotype goes we are good with money. How can a religion seriously effect the skill with money? I think this is another assumption. And again, some of the most compassionate people I know are Jewish.

Admiral Thrawn wrote:I'm curious to know

What are the Jewish beliefs concerning Jesus? And what are the other beliefs that make them different from Christianity?

I think Plebian got this right.

I gtg, more on this later

Money! wrote:Truthfully, as far to my knowledge, the Romans killed Jesus. At least that is what I learned in History class and a few other textbooks.

Pontius Pilate (a roman) was a procurator (keeper of the peace) under Emperor Tiberius. Pilate had the final say in the fate of Christ. He wanted to spare Christ but he was terrified of the repercussions Rome would suffer from the Jews if he did not kill Christ. The Jews wanted Christ dead. Pilate eventually surrendered his final say in the matter by offering the Jews a choice ... either spare Christ or spare Barabbas (a serial killer). The Jews chose to spare Barabbas and he was set free ... Christ was then tortured (scourged) by the Romans for the purpose of gratifying the bloodthirsty Jews. He was then crucified on the cross.

Point: The scourging and crucifiction were done by the Romans at the insistence of the Jews. Otherwise Christ would have been set free.

Money! wrote:I think Plebian got this right.

Yes he is correct. The Jews view him as a prophet and the Christians view him as the Messiah.

Yes he is correct. The Jews view him as a prophet and the Christians view him as the Messiah.

Has he been either? If you look at our history, I woudln't say he saved us from anything. I find we are as barbaric today as we've ever been.

I'm not a history major or read the entire bible so please don't take this as an insult to your religion.

I'm just stating my view on society in general.

Yes he is correct. The Jews view him as a prophet and the Christians view him as the Messiah.

he's not the messiah!
he's just a very naughty boy!

they view Jesus as just another in a long line of prophets, while of course Christians view him as the Messiah (who the Jews still wait for)

Hmm, interesting. So they don't consider Christ the son of god? If that's the case, then they apparently haven't been reading the same bible that everyone else has. The reason being is that the first half of the bible actually prophesied Jesus's arrival. Not to mention the part of God saying from the heavens "This is my son, whom I have approved". Even if they ignored the Greek scriptures and just paid attention to the first half of the bible, they should still have been able to discern through the prophecies that Jesus was the Messiah. I'm quite sure ego would prevent the Jewish religion from admitting this though.

As far as the Jews killing the Jesus. That was not the case. The ones who conspired to kill Jesus and had him delivered to Pontias Pilate were Jewish (The Jewish high ranking priests), but the actions of a few shouldn't reflect on a whole race.

And as far as them being God's chosen people, that was the case back then, but Israel lost favor with God. This was also mentioned in the bible. This priviledge now extends to "people of all nations"

CDN_Merlin wrote:If you look at our history, I woudln't say he saved us from anything. I find we are as barbaric today as we've ever been.

The world is just as barbaric today as it was then ... possibly more so now. The phrase 'save us' does not imply that he will squash all evil and give us utopia here on earth today.

I can see this mindset, because the stereotype goes we are good with money. How can a religion seriously effect the skill with money? I think this is another assumption. And again, some of the most compassionate people I know are Jewish.

I don't know if it's religion or nationality, but people from different parts of the world are better at certain things on average. Take these for example

Germans make some of the best beer
Germans are good engineers

French make some of the best wine

Italians are known for their art

Romans for their military and government

Africans for athletics

Jews for money

While this is not true for everyone of that race, there is certainly a trend.

roid wrote:Oh and something that has always confused me: why are they called Jews and not Israelis? Where did the word "Jew" even come from?

Sometimes they're called Jews and sometimes Hebrews. De Rigeur has actually studied this, so you may want to ask him, but in the mean time here's my best guess:

Back about 1500 BC, there was a nation called Israel. It was made up of people descended from Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel, meaning 'he wrestles with God'.) They were supposed to follow God as their king, and they had judges who interpreted the Law and settled disputes, and prophets who told them what God wanted them to do.

About 1000 BC, the nation decided they wanted a human king like other nations, so they got king Saul. Saul led the troops into battle even though the prophet Samuel told him to wait, so another king named David was appointed as Saul's replacement. (What most people don't realize is Samuel anointed David as king *before* the incident with Goliath!) Eventually Saul was killed while fighting the Philistine army, and David took the throne -- but Saul's son Ish-Bosheth also claimed the throne. They fought for a few years, with David holding the south and Ish-Bosheth holding the north. Eventually David took the whole kingdom.

David's son Solomon took over the throne, and then Solomon's son Rehoboam took the throne -- but the people rebelled and chose Jeroboam as king. Rehoboam held the loyalty of the south, while Jeroboam held the loyalty of the north. These became two separate kingdoms: Judah in the south (with the city of Jerusalem), and Israel in the north (with the city of Hebron).

Around 600 BC, Israel was overrun by Assyria and the people were scattered and interbred with all sorts of others. Around 500 BC, Judah was overrun by Babylon but the people were not so scattered. I believe "Hebrew" refers to those descended from the northern tribes while "Jew" refers to those descended from the southern tribes. Typically "Jew" is also used to refer to those who follow the religion we now call Judaism, regardless of their ancestry.

Those living in Israel are called Israelis, as well -- but that's a nationality, not an ethnicity or religion.

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As for what Jews think about Jesus: some think He is their Messiah, some think He was a prophet, and some think He was a loon. I'm with Thrawn here -- I'm not quite sure how they can read their own scriptures (especially Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53) and not think Jesus was the Messiah.

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As for who killed Jesus, remember what I said when the movie "the Passion of the Christ" came out: yeah, most of the villains in the story are Jews. The Romans are the ones in charge, so they're the ones who actually carry out the execution, but it's the Jews driving the action. But, remember, most of the protagonists in the story are Jews too. When you have a story that takes place in a 99% Jewish area and 99% of the characters are Jews, you should expect that there will be Jews on both sides of the spectrum.

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Unfortunately, I don't have time to write about why some people hate Jews. Maybe later...

If it makes any difference, if I could have anyone as an accountant, I would want them to be Jewish.

roid wrote: Q: What's worse than finding a worm in your apple?
A: The Holocaust

LOL that was excellent...some of the best Holocaust jokes come from survivors by the way.

I'm surprised how little people know of the world around them, i knew all this stuff before i set foot in Haifa donkeys years ago.

Roidi, there's quite a big Jewish community down under....maybe you havn't come across it yet.

Lothar's post is spot on (been doing your homework professor? ) If i could just point out this :-

Lothmeister wrote: I believe "Hebrew" refers to those descended from the northern tribes while "Jew" refers to those descended from the southern tribes. Typically "Jew" is also used to refer to those who follow the religion we now call Judaism, regardless of their ancestry.

Excellent info' that the mrs was quite impressed that you knew.

Lothman -caught an old SNL show today sorry wrote:Those living in Israel are called Israelis, as well -- but that's a nationality, not an ethnicity or religion.

Very very important point.

The Mrs when asked why Jews were the targets of hatred she replied "cause we're all badly behaved wankers" .....i don't think you should all take her too seriously though.

Lothar wrote: I believe "Hebrew" refers to those descended from the northern tribes while "Jew" refers to those descended from the southern tribes.

The word 'Jew' comes from the word 'Judah', which was the name of the southern kingdom, comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Note the Paul was a Benjamite but is known as a Jew.

Lothar wrote: I'm with Thrawn here -- I'm not quite sure how they can read their own scriptures (especially Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53) and not think Jesus was the Messiah.

It's a simple matter of hermeneutics. People tend to believe what they wish to be true.

Lothar wrote: As for who killed Jesus, remember what I said when the movie "the Passion of the Christ" came out: yeah, most of the villains in the story are Jews. The Romans are the ones in charge, so they're the ones who actually carry out the execution, but it's the Jews driving the action.

Who is responsible for killing Jesus? IMO, the only answer a Christian can give is, "I am".

It may be a little unexpected, but the fundamentalist/evangelicals (that so many enjoy ridiculing) believe the Jews are God's chosen people and are staunch supporters of Jews.

De Rigueur wrote: Who is responsible for killing Jesus? IMO, the only answer a Christian can give is, "I am".

Mr. Nail meet Mr Hammer.

CUDA wrote:

De Rigueur wrote: Who is responsible for killing Jesus? IMO, the only answer a Christian can give is, "I am".

Explain

I'll field that one, if I may. One of the basic tenets of Christianity is that Christ took on human form and was crucified in order to bring salvation to all people. His sacrifice was meant to overcome humanity's inherent sinful nature (as represented by the story of Adam and Eve) and give humanity the ability to obtain eternal life. Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary if humanity were not sinful. That's what De Rigueur means when he says that Christians should see themselves as responsible for Christ's death. The medieval view that the Jewish people were responsible for Christ's death was born out of ignorance and completely missed the entire point of the Crucifixion; it's pretty sad, actually, once you stop and think about it.

Money, I don't have a good answer to any of your questions, but I can say that people who treat Jews like this are lower than scum. You're right; it is very messed up for Christians to defame Jews, considering the fact that Jesus and all of his disciples were Jewish, as well as the fact that Christianity itself was born out of Judaism. It may be hard, but ignoring idiocity like that is probably the best way to deal with it.

The top three reasons from a kids point of view:

1) The christians had already tied up most of sunday and along come the jews who use saturday as their holy day...that screwed up the whole weekend!!

2) Silly little caps, long beards *and* long curly sideburns?!?! Come on man, you know you have to take some crap over that look!!!

3) We get presents on christmas...so what do they do? Hanukkah!!! Eight straight days of presents!!! Bastards!!

Heh...not in my house for christ's sake.


I'll try and address this with a bent that's supposed to be serious a little later. maybe.

A guys black is anothers white. I wanna be a tree. If you know what i mean.

Admiral Thrawn wrote:

CUDA wrote:

De Rigueur wrote: Who is responsible for killing Jesus? IMO, the only answer a Christian can give is, "I am".

Explain

Christ died for my sins, even if I was the only person on the planet he still would have sacrificed himself for me, so I am responsible for Christ's death

Palzon wrote:the jews didn't mean to kill jesus. they only meant to scare him

Not funny in the least

Behemoth wrote:

Palzon wrote:the jews didn't mean to kill jesus. they only meant to scare him

Not funny in the least

Palzon's moral sensibilities lead him to think that there are issues much more important than religious squabbles.

Palzon wrote:But let's get back to business as usual since this is the DBB. My book is right and yours is wrong. i get laid more than you could dream of. Also, my God could kick your God's *** any day.

Behemoth and De Rigueur, do you truly find Palzon's joke post more insulting than ccb056's serious post? Or ccb056's joke post? You guys amaze me.

If the woman is hot she can worship lettuce heads for all I care... religious prejudice is pure caulk fighting.

Genghis wrote:Behemoth and De Rigueur, do you truly find Palzon's joke post more insulting than ccb056's serious post? Or ccb056's joke post? You guys amaze me.

I was only making an observation about where Palzon was coming from.

FWIW, I did not find ccb056's posts insulting at all. He was pointing out that there is some truth to stereotypes. If that makes me amazing, so be it.

Now that you mention it, I guess I do wonder why Palzon decries child abuse but makes light of anti-Semitism.

I have read the entire thread and have these thoughts to offer.

The jews, through history, have been a people apart. The jewish religion calles them to be a distinctive people from all others, and to my understanding of the bible, for the original reason of showing God to the world.

After the dispersion by the Romans, Jews became a people without a nation, so wherever they went, they were obviously different by culture, religion and often race. This through history has made them ideal targets as scapegoats for many problems, plus a virtually permanent label of "different". And how often we are made, collectively, uneasy by what is different.

In earlier times across Europe (150+ years) Jews were forbidden to own property, so money lending and jewellery were about the only options left to them as livelyhoods. And they were good at it.

and finally:

As stated above, the Jews were set apart by their religion, given, the bible tells us, by God and it is stated in the bible that "they are the apple of God's eye", still, in spite of how things may seem. And I would suggest that the Devil attempts to thumb his nose at God by making trouble for his people any way he can.

I think most of the history here is correct, and Lothar's is good and in detail. I learned all this in history class but I forgot it. Jew I think does come from Judah.

As for who killed Jesus, if you are using "The Passion of the Christ" as a resource, please don't insult me. I doubt the reality of this as historical evidence. Then again, I have not seen it in protest of what I have heard: that it blames the Jews directly for the killing of Jesus. Somehow I do not believe the quack (opinion) Mel Gibson.

I thought that Pontus Pilate was pressured by other Romans to kill Jesus, not by Jews. Somehow I doubt that the

Iceman wrote: bloodthirsty Jews

would be just that, because being the minority they wouldn't do to well in a war. I think we can settle on the fact that no one can truly know for sure who killed Jesus. Why would the Jews want him killed? Just because the Jews don't think he is the Messiah doesn't mean the Jews didn't like him... he was considered a prophet, which usually is pretty important. I think people from any religion can say Jesus sounds like a pretty nice guy, so why would people want to kill him?

Note: Most of this paragraph was based solely on common sense, not historical eveidence, except for the first sentence, which I will say again I heard in history class and read in textbooks. Unless I was about to fall asleep and heard wrong

As for a reason we don't think he is the messiah, well, we don't think that saying "I love Jesus" (rude generalization, but you get my point) will forgive all our sins. The Messiah was supposed to end sin. Jesus enables people to go to a priest, tell him what you did wrong, and say some prayers, and be done with it... which seems a little far fetched. There is still alot of sin happening in the world, and we don't think that someone being forgiven by God means no more sin.

As for the posts saying that they can't understand why the Jews don't see Jesus as the Messiah, because "everything was pointing to it," those "Jews" are Christians right? That is the main difference that divides Jews and Christians. So there are "Jews" who believe Jesus was the Messiah, just not all of them did. "Jews" who did believe he was the Messiah followed him and a few hundred years later became known as Christians.

Anyways,

Will Robinson wrote:The top three reasons from a kids point of view:

1) The christians had already tied up most of sunday and along come the jews who use saturday as their holy day...that screwed up the whole weekend!!

2) Silly little caps, long beards *and* long curly sideburns?!?! Come on man, you know you have to take some crap over that look!!!

3) We get presents on christmas...so what do they do? Hanukkah!!! Eight straight days of presents!!! Bastards!!

Lol! There are some good looking Jews Will

And

Iceman wrote:

Money! wrote:Truthfully, as far to my knowledge, the Romans killed Jesus. At least that is what I learned in History class and a few other textbooks.

Pontius Pilate (a roman) was a procurator (keeper of the peace) under Emperor Tiberius. Pilate had the final say in the fate of Christ. He wanted to spare Christ but he was terrified of the repercussions Rome would suffer from the Jews if he did not kill Christ. The Jews wanted Christ dead. Pilate eventually surrendered his final say in the matter by offering the Jews a choice ... either spare Christ or spare Barabbas (a serial killer). The Jews chose to spare Barabbas and he was set free ... Christ was then tortured (scourged) by the Romans for the purpose of gratifying the bloodthirsty Jews. He was then crucified on the cross.

Point: The scourging and crucifiction were done by the Romans at the insistence of the Jews. Otherwise Christ would have been set free.

I've never heard such an in-detail explanation of the death of Jesus. Could you tell me the source?

I was told (and I think the original source was the historian of the day, Josephus) that Pontius Pilate had already been in trouble with Rome for losing control of the situation, riots etc in Palestine before (unruly lot those jews ) and another riot during passover had the possibility of dire consequences for him, the least being loss of his position. title and income. Even though he wanted to set Jesus free, he gave in to the crowd and their demands for Barabbas in order to keep the peace for his own sake! Rome had no need to fear the jews as alluded to above. Passover was one of the festivals that all jewish males were expected to be in Jerusalem for. The place would have been crowded to the max and a political tinderbox. A riot then had the likelyhood of turning into a full scale rebellion.

Another note: Jesus was seen by the religious leaders of the day as not only a blasphemer but as a serious threat to the stability of the political situation. They saw him as a prime candidate for a rebel leader, which would bring the wrath of Rome down on them and get them all wiped out, which is basically what finally happened in 70 AD.

De Rigueur wrote:

Genghis wrote:Behemoth and De Rigueur, do you truly find Palzon's joke post more insulting than ccb056's serious post? Or ccb056's joke post? You guys amaze me.

I was only making an observation about where Palzon was coming from.

FWIW, I did not find ccb056's posts insulting at all. He was pointing out that there is some truth to stereotypes. If that makes me amazing, so be it.

Now that you mention it, I guess I do wonder why Palzon decries child abuse but makes light of anti-Semitism.

i make light of lot of things to relieve stress and bring levity to situations that often seem hopeless. yet i don't see child abuse or antisemitism as hopeless problems. there is a lot of dark humor where i work.

on one hand, i give my all to make a difference to those i serve. on the other, i've been known to make a joke or two where it's out of my control.

however, i'm not sure where you think i'm coming from because your original response to my joke was cryptic and could be taken a number of ways, particularly in quoting me from another thread.