Saddam's meat grinder?

[roid]

In the past day i've heard 2 ppl mention meat grinders or plastic grinders in relation to Saddam.

Is this the latest news buzz fresh outof Iraq or something? That Saddam put live ppl through meat grinders? Coz this particular news hasn't filtered through the Australian media as yet (or i havn't been watching much).

Wassup with the meat grinder stuff?

[Lothar]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=sa ... gle+Search

Looks like it has been in the news a lot recently (brought up at Saddam's trial this week), though it was pretty well known before. See, for example, this 2003 New Yorker article and this 2003 newspaper article.

[Samuel Dravis]

Times Online
Telegraph

Yahoo

[Zuruck]

I guess whatever saddam did was of no comparison to what his son Uday did. Guy was bad news.

[woodchip]

See Roidy, it pays to take as gospel what I post.

[Zuruck]

Gospel, no. Truth, maybe. The witness said he saw a meatgrinder with hair and flesh on it, as he walked past. Not too much of a stretch though...

[woodchip]

Zuruck, I read about the plastic grinder scenario prior to the Iraq war and posted it here on this very board. The account was from a first person view. As he explained it, you were lucky when you got pushed in that you went in head first and not feet first.

[roid]

aright, i did some research:

"I swear by God I walked by a room and on my left I saw a grinder with blood coming out of it and human hair underneath..."

5 Days ago, Ahmed Hassan said as a witness in Saddam's trial what i wrote above. (i did hear about his appearance, but i must have missed that particular statement). This is the cause of this latest BUZZ in the media.
That was the answer i was looking for.

(Ali Hassan's story, overheard in an Iraqi Pub:) In 1984, when he was fifteen, his father, who was also a butcher, was arrested by Saddam Hussein?s security police for making some careless comment about the regime. Three months later, the remains of the body, which had been fed through a meat grinder, were returned to Hassan?s family with a demand for a thousand dinars for the trouble.

Sounds horrible, so horrible that i question it's authenticity. If only it could be substantiated eh.

I should also note that in my research, Lothar and Woodchip, i found this

THE TRUTH ABOUT SADDAM HUSSEIN'S "HUMAN MEAT GRINDER"

Alistair McConnachie writes: Today's newspapers -- 6 December 2005 -- report that Saddam Hussein is being accused of having a meat grinder in which he ground his enemies to death. How likely is that?
This article from 2004 casts doubt on the "meat grinding" story.

(It's always nice to know my doubts are shared by others)

Frankly i seriously doubt that live people were ever fed into a meat grinder, when i hear that it was done REGULARLY i doubt it even more. So... i await evidence, until then i treat it like you all should be: UNSUBSTANTIATED.

Woodchip, please read that article before mentioning meatgrinders again.

[fyrephlie]

Woodchip, please read that article before mentioning meatgrinders again.

trudat!! in his defense, does it really seem that implausible? there have been so many atrocities reported, not just by the hands of sodamninsane, but others as well. is it really more unbelievable than the live cremations the jews suffered in conentration camps during the holcaust?

unsubstantiated claims are merely just that, but the thought of it can certainly cause some stomach wrenching feelings, and since i believe that this is possible, i would at least say that it sickens me to the core.

(take note as well that mob bosses of previous generations were known to to do some horrible things with much less power than saddam held)

whether its true or not, saddam is a pure, complete B@ST@RD, and deserves the horrible fate he should be recieving.

[Flabby Chick]

Sounds horrible, so horrible that i question it's authenticity.

Worst sh1t like this happens in suburbia Roidi. Mr and Mrs Normal from next door adopt kids and use them for sex slaves, chop 'em up and bury them to fertilize the veg.

He's gassed the Kurds. His cronies behead old men on video and he slaughtered most of his family.

A meatgrinder sounds quite plausable to me.

[Duper]

I heard a radio interview with a woman reporter that had been forced to witness these incidents. They were lowered into a plastic shredder, head first or feet first. Thier remains were feed to the fish in the palace's pond.

This is some sick stuff. I don't feel bad about being there and I could care less about WoMD.

[woodchip]

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

http://tinyurl.com/8655l



People shredder
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

A plastic shredder was purportedly used during Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's rule for executions. According to a report by Ann Clwyd:

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic," she told the group. "Men were dropped into it, and we were made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw thirty people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food. On one occasion, I saw Quesay (a son of Saddam) personally supervise these murders."

[roid]

Woodchip why didn't you include the full wiki article? The reason could hardly be more obvious:
Here i'll BOLD the bit you OH SO CONVINENTLY LEFT OUT:

People shredder
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A plastic shredder was purportedly used during Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's rule for executions. According to a report by Ann Clwyd:

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic," she told the group. "Men were dropped into it, and we were made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw thirty people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food. On one occasion, I saw Quesay (a son of Saddam) personally supervise these murders."

This may not be true, as The Guardian has explained.

This Iraq-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
This torture-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

No woodchip, it's not Amature Disinformation Night on the DBB tonight. You loose.

oh, and if you're going to read the article i told you to anytime soon, THAT'D BE JUST PEACHY!

(ps: the Guardian article linked in the wiki article is a shortened version of the original article i first asked you to read: That original article is twice as long.)

[woodchip]

Yes Roidy but all the Guardian does is lament corroborating testimony to verify it. Which is why I posted a second account. Then again 2 seperate accounts may not be enough corrorboration depending on how much you do not want to believe.

[roid]

I heard a radio interview with a woman reporter that had been forced to witness these incidents. They were lowered into a plastic shredder, head first or feet first. Thier remains were feed to the fish in the palace's pond.

No reporters have witnessed these incidents. That's why the issue is being so hotly debated - there are no witnesses or evidence available*.
So if you could produce the name of this "i was forced to witness it" reporter, i'll see if i can fall off my chair, eat my hat, or something dramatic like that .

(*lets see how Ahmed Hassan's recent "i swear i briefly walked past a room with a human meat grinder in it" testimony stacks up.)

[banter]
oh oh i know, they are hiding the human meat shedders in specially designed meat-shredding-trucks (that from the outside just look like normal inconspicuous trucks) constantly move from place to place. You know, like the ones Saddam had his WMDs in.
(oh ★■◆● that's right, they never existed)
No? Well maybe they are hiding them in those huge underground fortresses in Afghanistan.
(oh ★■◆● that's right, those huge caves never existed either!)
[/banter]

[woodchip]

So unless a reporter witness's it, it never happened.
You're a funny guy Roid. Ever consider joining the circus? I understand Cops has just the shoes for you.

[roid]

Yes Roidy but all the Guardian does is lament corroborating testimony to verify it. Which is why I posted a second account. Then again 2 seperate accounts may not be enough corrorboration depending on how much you do not want to believe.

Not just lack of corroberating testimony Woodchip. Lack of evidence, lack of witnesses.
They are 2 seperate accounts, both collected by Ann Clwyd. Both unverifyable, and the verifyable information that was in one account was checked out and looks to be FICTIONAL. It Doesn't look good for Ann Clwyd Woodchip.

this is all put forward in the original article you as yet have STILL not read.

/me gets out the "forcefeed" spoon. ok here we go:

you quoted an account by Kenneth Joseph (via Ann Clwyd). You know, the "[ex-]human shield volunteer [who] made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present"

well... if you read my article you would have read this:

"Yet many have since questioned Joseph's claims. When Carol Lipton, an American journalist, investigated his story in April for CounterPunch, she reported that 'none of the human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Joseph'. She also noted that 'incredibly, nowhere has a single photo or segment from [Joseph's] 14 hours of interviews been published'."

so Kenneth Joseph my a$$.

next: you quoted a report by Ann Clwyd. This is the British pro-iraq-war politician who supposedly talked to Kenneth Joseph (as i showed above, none of the verifyable claims of "Kenneth Joseph" checked out. That is, if he even ever existed in the first place.)

Ann Clwyd did not witness this, she is quoting an Iraqi that her team interviewed on her trip to Iraq, the Iraqi said HE witnessed it: "'Sometimes they were put in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 die like this...On one occasion I saw Qusay Hussein personally supervising these murders.'"

What was done to corroborate the Iraqi's claims? Apparently nothing. Indict refuses to tell me the names of the researchers who were in Iraq with Mahon and Clwyd; and, I am told, Mahon, who no longer works at Indict, 'does not want to speak to journalists about his work with us'. But Clwyd tells me: 'We heard it from a victim; we heard it and we believed it.' So nothing was done to check the truth of what the victim said, against other witness statements or other evidence for a shredding machine? 'Well, no,' says Clwyd. '[Indict researchers] didn't have to do that; they were just taking witness statements.'

But surely, before going public with so shocking a story, facts ought to have been checked and double-checked? Clwyd clearly doesn't think so. 'We heard it from someone who had been released from the Abu Ghraib prison...I heard his account of what went on in the prison. I was there when [Indict's] cross-examination of the witness took place, and I am satisfied from what I heard that shredding was a method of execution. We knew he wasn't making it up.'

read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article read the article

[roid]

I heard a radio interview with a woman reporter that had been forced to witness these incidents. They were lowered into a plastic shredder, head first or feet first. Thier remains were feed to the fish in the palace's pond.

No reporters have witnessed these incidents. That's why the issue is being so hotly debated - there are no witnesses or evidence available*.
So if you could produce the name of this "i was forced to witness it" reporter, i'll see if i can fall off my chair, eat my hat, or something dramatic like that Smile.

(*lets see how Ahmed Hassan's recent "i swear i briefly walked past a room with a human meat grinder in it" testimony stacks up.)

So unless a reporter witness's it, it never happened.
You're a funny guy Roid. Ever consider joining the circus? I understand Cops has just the shoes for you.

No... if Duper says a reporter witnessed it but no such reporter exists. then Duper is either mistaken of he is lying. That's no laughing matter Woodchip.

i do hope this is simple enough for you to understand. I'm sure everyone else is following this along just fine.

[fyrephlie]

yeah ...

im sure everyone here has seen the conspiracy theory that there was no boeing 757 that crashed into the pentagon on september 11, 2005.

i admit that it doesnt much look like any other 757 crash site, though i have only seen pictures of one hitting the pentagon...

conspiracy theory photo set 1

anti-conspiracy theory photo set 1

so, where is the corraborating evidence? i don't know i wasn't there. what do i think? i don't know... i wasn't there i just watched it all on the news all day long. seems likely that a plane crashed into the buidling, but seems plausible for something else to have happened and the government covers it up.

news reports are hard to swallow no matter what you do, because you aren't there seeing it.

i can see saddam meat-grinders as plausable, and may even want it to be true to further my hatred toward the man. but clearly, there isn't a lot of evidence to support it. can i know for sure? no.

im moving to the other side of the fence with roid and saying: i can't tell for sure, so i will not believe it, just fear it being possible.

[Will Robinson]

PRINCIPLE OF SIMPLICITY
A criterion for deciding among scientific theories or explanations. One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic.

Considering the vast scope of Saddams torture and murder methods, that have been verified, wouldn't it be prudent to say I can't prove it but considering all we do know about Saddam's methods it's most likely this is also true'....

After all, anyone who would handcuff and blindfold people and then video tape them as his security guards walk them off the roof of multistory buildings wouldn't really hesitate to use a shredder on someone would they?

So what motivates you to take the 'without witnesses it's not true' position. It's as if Baghdad Bob is broadcasting again!

[Ferno]

hehe this is funny to read.

rody's kickin the snot out of woody and all woody can do is throw a few barbs. nice.

[Duper]

im not sure that it was a reporter or not, it was like 2 years ago... maybe three. But if you want to not believe this Roid, that's up to you. The appauling horrifying torture "chambers" that have indeed been validated has done nothing to discredit the reports of a plastic shredder. Saddams methods were the worst and most brutal in every sense of the word.

[fyrephlie]

im not sure that it was a reporter or not, it was like 2 years ago... maybe three. But if you want to not believe this Roid, that's up to you. The appauling horrifying torture "chambers" that have indeed been validated has done nothing to discredit the reports of a plastic shredder. Saddams methods were the worst and most brutal in every sense of the word.

exactly... human meat grinders or not... saddam deserves the worst!

[Kilarin]

Whether or not Saddam committed any of the particular attrocities attributed to him, there can be little doubt he DID commit many attrocities.

Take, for example, the alleged poison gas incident. What we don't seem to hear a lot about now is that Saddam may not have really done it. Both Iraq AND Iran were using poison gas, and the kind that wiped out the kurdish village was more commonly used by Iran. So there is every possibility that Iran actually did that particular attack instead of Saddam.

But honestly, who cares? The only reason we can have any confusion over the issue is that BOTH SIDES were using poison gas. If he didn't happen to wipe out that village with gas, he certainly killed other people with it.

Of course, that then brings us back to saying that we were justified in going to war to stop Saddam. Much as I like to see a sadistic dictator get some of his own back, if we are going to start getting rid of sadistic dictators, the list is LONG, and Saddam wasn't at the top of it. Kim Jong of North Korea makes Saddam look like Barney.

Kilarin

[Duper]

Saddam, him self did little of it. It was his sons. Although he had a better part of his family and friends slaughtered the day he took office.

[woodchip]

"so Kenneth Joseph my a$$." Roidy

Well in the first part of my reply to your doubting thomas approach, Kenneth Joseph does appear to be a real person. While there is some conflicting info, the following does present enough evidence that one Kenneth Joseph is indeed alive and well:

http://www.counterpunch.org/lipton04122003.html

[woodchip]

By Roid
well... if you read my article you would have read this:
THE ARTICLE YOU ARE NOT READING wrote:
"Yet many have since questioned Joseph's claims. When Carol Lipton, an American journalist, investigated his story in April for CounterPunch, she reported that 'none of the human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Joseph'. She also noted that 'incredibly, nowhere has a single photo or segment from [Joseph's] 14 hours of interviews been published'."

Well I went to that link and while there I pulled this out that perhaps in your zeal to prove me wrong, had overlooked:

"In his book Allies: The United States, Britain, Europe and the War in Iraq, published in December 2003, William Shawcross wrote of a regime that 'fed people into huge shredders, feet first to prolong the agony'."

I then went to National Review on Line to check if the auther was legitimate and found:

"His impressive new book, Allies: The U.S., Britain, Europe, and the War in Iraq, is a passionate call to arms in what Shawcross describes as "the most important battle of our time."

http://tinyurl.com/979e6

So now we have a acclaimed author writing about Iraq shredders. While I have not read the book, I cannot say that Shawcross is parroting Clwyd or not.


By Roid
"Not just lack of corroberating testimony Woodchip. Lack of evidence, lack of witnesses.
They are 2 seperate accounts, both collected by Ann Clwyd."


Yes, so I guess what you are saying is we should no longer believe Amnesty International when they have "Reports" of abuse. Under our own judicial system I guess we should not believe witness's "Reports" of a crime either.

[Will Robinson]

.....Of course, that then brings us back to saying that we were justified in going to war to stop Saddam. Much as I like to see a sadistic dictator get some of his own back, if we are going to start getting rid of sadistic dictators, the list is LONG, and Saddam wasn't at the top of it. Kim Jong of North Korea makes Saddam look like Barney.

Kilarin

Saddam was at the top of the list of targets who in addition to being a bruatal dictator was also vulnerable under violation of U.N. Resolutions and also in violation of cease fire agreements and also running a country that was strategically and tactically advantageous to our new agenda for the middle east.

In fact on that list there was only one name and Kim Jong Ill wasn't even close to ever being in the running....

That argument is a red herring.

[woodchip]

hehe this is funny to read.

rody's kickin the snot out of woody and all woody can do is throw a few barbs. nice.

Care to hand your hanky to roid?

[Kilarin]

Saddam was at the top of the list of targets who in addition to being a bruatal dictator was also vulnerable under violation of U.N. Resolutions

I find it difficult to understand how we can enforce a U.N. resolution against the will of the U.N. It seems that we can't have it both ways. Either admit that we are doing this without the U.N. (which is legitimate, we don't HAVE to have the U.N.'s blessing for every action) OR, do it with the full cooperation of the U.N.

and also in violation of cease fire agreements

Which, for reasons completely beyond my comprehension, I never once heard mentioned by the president as a reason for going to war with Iraq.

and also running a country that was strategically and tactically advantageous to our new agenda for the middle east.

Another scary reason for going to war, especially when it has so far backfired on us each and every time we tried to manipulate the middle east. Don't forget that we CREATED both Saddam and the Taliban precisly because we thought it would be strategically and tactically advantageous to our agenda for the middle east. But ignoring all that, in what way was Iraq more strategically and tactically advantageous to us than Afghanistan? I'm not saying there isn't a reason, I just would like to know what it is.

Kilarin

[Lothar]

and also in violation of cease fire agreements

Which, for reasons completely beyond my comprehension, I never once heard mentioned by the president as a reason for going to war with Iraq.

Bush, Oct 7 2002: "The world has tried no-fly zones to keep Saddam from terrorizing his own people -- and in the last year alone, the Iraqi military has fired upon American and British pilots more than 750 times."

[roid]

well... if you read my article you would have read this:

"Yet many have since questioned Joseph's claims. When Carol Lipton, an American journalist, investigated his story in April for CounterPunch, she reported that 'none of the human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Joseph'. She also noted that 'incredibly, nowhere has a single photo or segment from [Joseph's] 14 hours of interviews been published'."

Well I went to that link and while there I pulled this out that perhaps in your zeal to prove me wrong, had overlooked:

"In his book Allies: The United States, Britain, Europe and the War in Iraq, published in December 2003, William Shawcross wrote of a regime that 'fed people into huge shredders, feet first to prolong the agony'."

I then went to National Review on Line to check if the auther was legitimate and found:

"His impressive new book, Allies: The U.S., Britain, Europe, and the War in Iraq, is a passionate call to arms in what Shawcross describes as "the most important battle of our time."

http://tinyurl.com/979e6

So now we have a acclaimed author writing about Iraq shredders. While I have not read the book, I cannot say that Shawcross is parroting Clwyd or not.

Woodchip, you do realise that this article you found is yet another "Did Kenneth Joseph really see meat grinders in Iraq?" article, yes?

Regarding Shawcross's Book: here you go, read it yourself like i did .

as you can see the book has 2 (count them) mentions of shredders.

on page 186 he says that "Iraqis might be glad to be rid of Saddam's people-shredders". Just on the previous page he talks about, guess who? ANN CLWYD, and how she campaigned for years for the war. (This is the only mention of Ann Clwyd in the book. There are no mentions of Kenneth Joseph)

Are you satisfied that William Shawcross is just parroting Ann Clywd?

I remind you again that Ann Clywd's report is the source of both the "eye witness" account which is so far inverifyable, and the FALSE/FABRICATED information about Kenneth Joseph.

I have left you with no evidence left Woodchip . I'm sorry i had to embarass you like this but the truth shall set you free.

(i still await to see how Ahmed Hassan's recent "i swear i briefly walked past a room with a human meat grinder in it" testimony pans out.)

"Not just lack of corroberating testimony Woodchip. Lack of evidence, lack of witnesses.
They are 2 seperate accounts, both collected by Ann Clwyd."

Yes, so I guess what you are saying is we should no longer believe Amnesty International when they have "Reports" of abuse. Under our own judicial system I guess we should not believe witness's "Reports" of a crime either.

You should probabaly hesitate before starting a sentance directed at me saying "I guess what you are saying is...". Because you are yet again, incorrect.

hehe this is funny to read.

rody's kickin the snot out of woody and all woody can do is throw a few barbs. nice.

Care to hand your hanky to roid?

No-one's laughing WITH you Woodchip.

Why don't you just give up. (I'll stop embarasing you.)

[woodchip]

So you have yet to disprove Clwyd. Yawn. Your point?

[roid]

are you joking?

you just quoted from an article that confirmed what i was telling you in earlier posts: Ann Clwyd's report on Kenneth Joseph was found to be false/fabricated.

false/fabricated as in... disproven

He was never a Human Shield, he wasn't even an American, and the hours of footage that he supposedly smuggled over the border does not exist.

[Kilarin]

Bush, Oct 7 2002: "The world has tried no-fly zones to keep Saddam from terrorizing his own people -- and in the last year alone, the Iraqi military has fired upon American and British pilots more than 750 times."

Well, at least he DID mention it somewhere then. Thank you for the Link and correction Lothar.
[edit]rest of comment removed by author since it was off-topic for this thread[/edit]

Kilarin

[roid]

Risk Alert Level of this topic becomming derailed very soon: APRICOT

[Kilarin]

Risk Alert Level of this topic becomming derailed very soon: APRICOT

Ha! Good point. I've edited the question out of my previous post. It doesn't belong in this thread and it's not worth starting another because we've all been over it before.

Kilarin

[woodchip]

http://www.counterpunch.org/lipton04122003.html

you quoted an account by Kenneth Joseph (via Ann Clwyd). You know, the "[ex-]human shield volunteer [who] made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present"

well... if you read my article you would have read this:

"Yet many have since questioned Joseph's claims. When Carol Lipton, an American journalist, investigated his story in April for CounterPunch, she reported that 'none of the human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Joseph'. She also noted that 'incredibly, nowhere has a single photo or segment from [Joseph's] 14 hours of interviews been published'."

so Kenneth Joseph my a$$.

Again Roid, are you saying one Kenneth Joseph does not exist? if so:

"Who is Kenneth Joseph?

Both Arnaud de Borchgrave, in his two UPI articles, and Johann Hari, in both the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Independent, describe Kenneth Joseph as an "American antiwar demonstrator".

In a report posted by the Religious Organizations Network, entitled "Assyrian Christianity in Japan", by UCAN Report, Reverend Joseph spoke at a conference on March 16, 1998 in Tokyo, on the history of Christianity in the Far East. At the conference, he was introduced as "American Reverend Ken Joseph".

Kenneth Joseph's byline appears on a March 26 article, datelined Amman, Jordan, entitled "I Was Wrong", and posted on the Assyrian Christian News website. He identifies himself not as an American, but as an Assyrian, born and raised in Japan, whose father [Ken Joseph, Sr.] came to Japan to rebuild the country after World War II.

In an interview in Capitalism Magazine, he again spoke about "participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television, and in regular columns".

The alumni directory for Biola College posts an entry for Kenneth Joseph. While he states that he is a pastor in Japan, directing the Keikyo Institute, has written 3 books, and a weekly column for one of Japan's main newspapers, nowhere does he mention being a "peace activist".

In the January, 2003 Assyrian Christian Newsletter, Dr. Dan Wooding, founder of ASSIST Ministries, penned "Ministering to the Assyrians", about a clandestine missionary trip led by Kenneth Joseph, an American "Western Assyrian Christian" who "now lives in Japan" to Baghdad. Joseph, who apparently just returned, went there to deliver supplies to "the precious Assyrian Christians and to set up a network to distribute relief once the situation calms".

It is obvious that Kenneth Joseph has been involved in long-term policy planning for the future of Iraq, with an eye upon being a key player in post-war reconstruction.

Kenneth Joseph's regular newspaper column is published by Japan Times, for which he has a regular column. Japan Times is part of the Nifco group, a multinational corporation. The Chairman of the Board of Nifco is Toshiaki Ogasawara, a member of the Trilateral Commission from 1992 through 2002."

So I think it is safe to assume one Kenneth Joseph does exist. Since he is a real breathing human being, the question is, "Why hasn't a reporter actually tried to find him and talk to him direct?"

next: you quoted a report by Ann Clwyd. This is the British pro-iraq-war politician who supposedly talked to Kenneth Joseph (as i showed above, none of the verifyable claims of "Kenneth Joseph" checked out. That is, if he even ever existed in the first place.)

See above references

Ann Clwyd did not witness this, she is quoting an Iraqi that her team interviewed on her trip to Iraq, the Iraqi said HE witnessed it: "'Sometimes they were put in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 die like this...On one occasion I saw Qusay Hussein personally supervising these murders.'"

So this witness is someone other than Kenneth Joseph correct?

What was done to corroborate the Iraqi's claims? Apparently nothing. Indict refuses to tell me the names of the researchers who were in Iraq with Mahon and Clwyd; and, I am told, Mahon, who no longer works at Indict, 'does not want to speak to journalists about his work with us'. But Clwyd tells me: 'We heard it from a victim; we heard it and we believed it.' So nothing was done to check the truth of what the victim said, against other witness statements or other evidence for a shredding machine? 'Well, no,' says Clwyd. '[Indict researchers] didn't have to do that; they were just taking witness statements.'

But surely, before going public with so shocking a story, facts ought to have been checked and double-checked? Clwyd clearly doesn't think so. 'We heard it from someone who had been released from the Abu Ghraib prison...I heard his account of what went on in the prison. I was there when [Indict's] cross-examination of the witness took place, and I am satisfied from what I heard that shredding was a method of execution. We knew he wasn't making it up.'

Perhaps Clwyd is lying, is that what you are suggesting? Do you think Clwyd or Indict is going to release names at that time? How long do you suppose the witness's would be alive.

you just quoted from an article that confirmed what i was telling you in earlier posts: Ann Clwyd's report on Kenneth Joseph was found to be false/fabricated.

false/fabricated as in... disproven

He was never a Human Shield, he wasn't even an American, and the hours of footage that he supposedly smuggled over the border does not exist.

Hold on Roidy, no where have you proved that the film does not exist nor that Josephs statements are patently false. Nor do you present proof that Clwyd was telling falsehoods. All you can do is ASSUME as no one has interviewed Clwyd or Joseph as to the veracity of their statements. Assuming will not get a prosecutor to indict nor on this board will assuming win any debates. So until someone corners Clwyd and Joseph and asks them wassup, I'll tend to believe shredders are a distinct possibility.
Are you ready to yield?

[roid]

http://www.counterpunch.org/lipton04122003.html

you quoted an account by Kenneth Joseph (via Ann Clwyd). You know, the "[ex-]human shield volunteer [who] made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present"

well... if you read my article you would have read this:

"Yet many have since questioned Joseph's claims. When Carol Lipton, an American journalist, investigated his story in April for CounterPunch, she reported that 'none of the human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Joseph'. She also noted that 'incredibly, nowhere has a single photo or segment from [Joseph's] 14 hours of interviews been published'."

so Kenneth Joseph my a$$.

Again Roid, are you saying one Kenneth Joseph does not exist? ...

No that would be stupid. I earlier implied the possability that he does not exist, but did not say he does not. But the article you linked to showed that Kenneth Joseph does really exist, clearing up that small point.

So I think it is safe to assume one Kenneth Joseph does exist. Since he is a real breathing human being, the question is, "Why hasn't a reporter actually tried to find him and talk to him direct?"

I was thinking the same thing. So after reading that he existed, i assumed efforts have been made to contact him that have not as yet been successful. Given his strangely close ties with the planning of the Iraq war as mentioned in the article (and other inconsitancies), it could be possible that he's hiding from the media.

Woodchip, note that i said "possible", just like in the previous thing you misunderstood*. I didn't say "I know that Kenneth Joseph is hiding from the media".

(*yeah right, afterall it IS Amature Disinformation Night isn't it Woodchip?)

next: you quoted a report by Ann Clwyd. This is the British pro-iraq-war politician who supposedly talked to Kenneth Joseph (as i showed above, none of the verifyable claims of "Kenneth Joseph" checked out. That is, if he even ever existed in the first place.)
Ann Clwyd did not witness this, she is quoting an Iraqi that her team interviewed on her trip to Iraq, the Iraqi said HE witnessed it: "'Sometimes they were put in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 die like this...On one occasion I saw Qusay Hussein personally supervising these murders.'"

So this witness is someone other than Kenneth Joseph correct?

Correct, it was neither quoting Ann Clwyd nor Kenneth Jospeph.

What was done to corroborate the Iraqi's claims? Apparently nothing. Indict refuses to tell me the names of the researchers who were in Iraq with Mahon and Clwyd; and, I am told, Mahon, who no longer works at Indict, 'does not want to speak to journalists about his work with us'. But Clwyd tells me: 'We heard it from a victim; we heard it and we believed it.' So nothing was done to check the truth of what the victim said, against other witness statements or other evidence for a shredding machine? 'Well, no,' says Clwyd. '[Indict researchers] didn't have to do that; they were just taking witness statements.'

But surely, before going public with so shocking a story, facts ought to have been checked and double-checked? Clwyd clearly doesn't think so. 'We heard it from someone who had been released from the Abu Ghraib prison...I heard his account of what went on in the prison. I was there when [Indict's] cross-examination of the witness took place, and I am satisfied from what I heard that shredding was a method of execution. We knew he wasn't making it up.'

Perhaps Clwyd is lying, is that what you are suggesting? Do you think Clwyd or Indict is going to release names at that time? How long do you suppose the witness's would be alive.

Yes, Ann Clwyd lying was what i was suggesting the possability of when i suggested that Kenneth Jospeph may not actually exist. You're a little slow on the ball this week Woodchip.

you just quoted from an article that confirmed what i was telling you in earlier posts: Ann Clwyd's report on Kenneth Joseph was found to be false/fabricated.

false/fabricated as in... disproven

He was never a Human Shield, he wasn't even an American, and the hours of footage that he supposedly smuggled over the border does not exist.

Hold on Roidy, no where have you proved that the film does not exist nor that Josephs statements are patently false. Nor do you present proof that Clwyd was telling falsehoods.

Kenneth Joseph was NOT AN AMERICAN. Saying that he is american is a falsehood. PROOF is that HE WAS BORN IN JAPAN AND SPENT MOST OF HIS LIFE THERE. That is "proof that Clwyd was telling falsehoods".
To give Ann Clwyd credit though, it is easy to assume that Kenneth Joseph is american, because he is of American descent (he had an american father), and he did at least one of his university courses in California. In this case Ann Clwyd may simply be a victim of not bothering to properly verify the facts of her own report. An accusation which is at the heart of why the statements from OTHER Iraqis are also being looked at suspicously. She has admitted to not doing proper fact checking, you quoted it yourself when you re-quoted my article quote (:lol: toungue twister) just above.

All you can do is ASSUME as no one has interviewed Clwyd or Joseph as to the veracity of their statements.

Ann Clwyd HAS been interviewed (as a Brisish politician she is a public figure, not at all hard to track down for an interview). You quoted her response to this interview yourself when you re-quoted my article quote just above (ie: she was interviewed by the author of that article).
She said that she has no proof/evidence other than that presented in her report, remember? Her team simply interviewed Iraqis and recorded what they said, then presented it to the British Government as evidence to compell them to goto war - AND she allowed those sections of her report to be reprinted as FACT by countless media outlets.
I think these are both serious allegations.

No, Kenneth Joseph along ALL of the Iraqis that Ann Clwyd interviewed, NO-ONE has yet successful been able to contact any of them so that their statements may be verified. There needs to be more hard verifyable FACTS and less heresay if anyone is to get to the bottom of this.
Given the results so far though it doesn't look good, does it? No verifyable facts, some facts INCORRECT, the validity of an entire government report has been brought into question. If you ask me, it's similar to the WMD scandal - Reports that everyone was led to believe were true, and subsequently WENT TO WAR OVER turning out to be FILTHY LIES.
It smells distinctly familure.

Assuming will not get a prosecutor to indict nor on this board will assuming win any debates. So until someone corners Clwyd and Joseph and asks them wassup, I'll tend to believe shredders are a distinct possibility.
Are you ready to yield?

I wonder if YOU yourself are assuming something quite large and important about me in this thread. hehe, but i won't spoil it until you reveal the assumption.

I think you will find Woodchip that everything i have said is watertight, as I rarely mispeak at times like this, John Howard himself couldn't have done a better job . You don't have sh|t on me Woodchip, but YOU as usual have walked around with your foot firmly in your mouth.

I accused you of having nothing left Woodchip, and then i corrected every single one of your "misunderstandings", therefore my accusation that you have nothing left still stands. My accusation that you are of a habit of purposely and knowingly presenting disinformation remains UNCHALENGED. And i may yet get the implication that you "purposely misunderstand other people's posts to dodge issues" to stick.

Anyone so arrogant, so antagonistic, with such strong and vocal opinions; yet who can't back it up, deserves to be publicly humiliated. I suggest you stay away from the political arena, it will eat you alive.

Woodchip, you are PWNED.

[woodchip]

Dear me Roidy, you are certain;y getting agressive. Perhaps the riots in Sydney are rubbing off on you?

You have gone to great length to disprove an allegation but as of yet you have not. You cast aspersions towards me yet no where have I said they in fact exist. OTOH though, we do have recorded instances of:

Men being hung from the ceiling and having heavy weights tied to their testicles.

Menstruating women being hung upside down

Bound captives being tossed off tall buildings

Arms and legs being chopped off captives

Mothers raped in front of their family

If Saddam and friends did not have a record of such grisley torture methods I would concede your point. Since the record shows that nothing was too heinous an act I will believe the shredder scenario a distinct possibilty. Your tender ideology of not wanting to believe something until you have hard cold "facts", while laudable, won't save the world. Practicing the black mind arts on me won't work either kiddo. The force is against you.