DescentBB

12:01am = a slow, but still working justice system.

Could an argument be made that justice would be better served if his sentence was commuted so he could continue with his anti-gang work?

Just a thought.

To bad he didn't have the same concern for the guy he shot in the back with the victims kids looking on. So a few good deeds and all is forgotten eh? To bad the newsies aren't checking to see what the murdered mans children think about this.

Dedman wrote:Could an argument be made that justice would be better served if his sentence was commuted so he could continue with his anti-gang work?

Just a thought.

I too had some trouble with this, but he shotgunned a truly innocent chinese couple, and their daughter, in cold blood for money he needed.

The other thing that bothers me is why do they wait so long....over 20 years. People can change in that time so they look more pure.

Bettina

From what has been said by the people that saw him every day- prison guards and workers- all of Tookie's "anti-gang work" was just a front. He remains one of the most cold blooded and ruthless individuals they have seen and has made threats from inside his jail cell against others, presumably acted on by the crips thugs.

I really thought he was gonna "OJ" his way out of this, but even Arnie saw this guy as a real bad seed and rejected calls for clemency.

Not only was this guy the founder of one of the most violent drug gangs out there, but he was a racist thug that enjoyed recalling how he killed some "buddha-heads."

woodchip wrote:To bad he didn't have the same concern for the guy he shot in the back with the victims kids looking on. So a few good deeds and all is forgotten eh? To bad the newsies aren't checking to see what the murdered mans children think about this.

I suggest maybe commuting his sentence to life in prison and you think that means that all is forgiven huh? Interesting.

Last time I checked, prison life was no cake walk. Additionally plenty of murderers get life instead of the death. Moreover, the death penalty has been shown to not be a deterrent. This leaves revenge. Revenge isn't justice.

If the guy was really campaigning for kids to stay out of gangs (I guess there is some question about this. Fair enough) then I think justice would have been better served by letting him live the rest of his life behind bars and continue his work.

an Eye for an Eye, too bad he only had one life. maybe they should have hung, shot and electrocuted him while they were giving him the lethal injection. that would have been more fitting. since he took 4 lives executioner style

ah yes, the death penalty conversation.

http://blackcommentator.com/162/162_how ... liams.html

Biased site? Probably, but allows for some interesting questions. I don't know enough of this case to comment on his being guilty or not, the way I see it, you have a multiple murder and a black man with a gang past. Open and shut, do you need more evidence than that? Read the website, there is some interesting stuff.

interesting read, Biased site? without question!! I find it interesting that its always a racial thing, and that people like Tookie aren't guilty, they are just a victim of "The Man" as far as his conversion in prison. the man was sentenced to death!!! don't you think he would try anything to get out of it??? besides his prison stay was not stellar or model he had many altercations with other prisoners and the guards. his supporters want to say "Look he wrote books for children" and "he tried to council kids to stay out of gangs", the same gangs which he formed by the way. some would say that taking his life is revenge, far from it. it is justice. I heard one man say last night that we cant execute him because there are too many variable that come into play in his case, if that's the case then we can NEVER try anyone because there are too many variable in every case. this man killed 4 INNOCENT people execution style in cold blood he deserves to sacrifice his life, he knew the penalties before he committed his crimes. so now it is reckoning day its time that he suffered the consequences for HIS and HIS actions alone. hell even the 9th circuit the most criminal friendly court in the land couldn't find a reason to stay his execution. it is time to deal with this blight on society. may God have mercy on your soul Tookie Williams, because I will not

Ask yourself one question. Is society a better place now that he is dead? If so, why?

We're not spending a few million dollars over the rest of his life to feed him and give him cable TV.

Without question that site is biased, it would have had alot more credibility had they left out the down trodden black man who the white man wants dead because he is black. I stopped reading it at that point, I am so sick of that speach. I have lisened to it for 35 years now and have it memorized. If that site had anything to say it was lost with me at that point.
He played the game and lost, now he pays the price.
For the most part I am against the death penalty because mistakes happen and we see this with DNA evidence over turning convictions rather often thses days.
The U.S. can also convict with cricumstansle evidence, but there was also phyicle evidence introduced to confirm his guilt,other people who fingered him, along with his apology to the victims, but he says he did not do it - He knows way more than he is saying for sure. He should have fessed up and spilled his guts somewhere along the line while pleading his case against the death penelty if he wanted his sentance commuted. While I may sympathise with him, he made his choises and had plenty of time to fess up and speak the truth, of which he did neither.

Sympathy is weak when shown to people that deserve punishment for stuff like this, no mercy till he gets at least half of what he deserves.

If he shot more then one person to death he sadly only has one life to pay for that with.

The site was biased yes. But hopefully, the details about the gun and the fingerprints are not correct, because what did they use to tie him to the scene if they had nothing else? Think about that...you're supposed to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is interesting that the left tries to prevent the death of a rabid killer yet has no problem with abortions. Nice dichotomy eh? All this sadness over a worthless piece of shiz, and not one lament for the victims. Of course they are dead and forgotten and the lib newsies can play on your emotions by saying how Tookie wrote children stories and was a changed man. Ask yourself if he was not on death row would he have wrote those books.

If they're free to have abortions, then we're(the guy) is free to opt-out of parenthood. /offtopic

Fusion pimp wrote:12:01am = a slow, but still working justice system.

Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

I'm confused by a lot of right wing people who are deeply into the christian religion, yet support capital punishment.

Maybe you can clarify this for me?

Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

Absolutely!

I'm confused by a lot of right wing people who are deeply into the christian religion, yet support capital punishment.

I'm confused by the fact that most of the secular believe that Christians don't support justice, even unltimate justice.

We're not peace-love-chicken grease-hippies.
A life was taken and justice was served by forfeiting his.

Maybe you can clarify this for me?

Sure, but I'm not going to do all the work-

Let me know when you have a bible handy, or have time to go to a bible resource on-line. The explaination isn't at all difficult, but it would be easier if you could follow along by reading for yourself.

I'm hoping you're still down for that clarification.

Birdseye wrote:

Fusion pimp wrote:12:01am = a slow, but still working justice system.

Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

I'm confused by a lot of right wing people who are deeply into the christian religion, yet support capital punishment.

Maybe you can clarify this for me?

[edit] ludacrously immflamatory [/edit]

point i made was .. yes in the Bible there was all sorts of smoting. God was a mighty smoter.

Birdseye wrote:Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

Even after being punished in such a way, you bet your ass he would. God was quite the "smoter".

(for more on the bible and smoting take a poke @ phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8822)

Ferno wrote:If they're free to have abortions, then we're(the guy) is free to opt-out of parenthood. /offtopic

DAMN STRAIGHT!

Fusion pimp wrote:

Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

Absolutely!

I'd personally have to completely disagree with this statement. Are we talking about the same Jesus here? The Jesus who rejected the "eye for an eye" mentality of the Old Testament and instructed His followers to "turn the other cheek" and "love thine enemies"? The same Jesus who forgave His own executioners when He was hanging on the cross? I find it very hard to believe that Christ would support the retribution mentality of the death penalty.

As for where I myself stand on the issue, it's something that I'm really torn on. On one hand, I can easily understand how a victim's family would demand that their killer be put to death; if I was in their shoes, I'd probably feel the same way. I also recognize that the state has a right to protect the safety of its citizens. However, there's a very big part of me that looks at things differently. By putting a convicted murderer to death, what does society really gain? Will that somehow bring back the person who was killed? Who gives us the right to determine whether someone should live or die; how can we stand there and determine beyond a shadow of a doubt the status of someone's repentance for a crime? Who are we to play God? There's also the ever-present possibility of putting an innocent person to death; I dare anyone here to stand up and say that, were that to happen, even once, they would continue to support the current application of the death penalty. In terms of my own faith, John Paul II frequently spoke out against the use of the death penalty, saying that it had no place in a civilized society that professes to place value on human life; I think that's an argument that is pretty hard to shimmy around.

Public opinion in this country is changing; percentage-wise, support for capital punishment continues to drop, and more and more state lawmakers are calling for moratoria on death sentences. To me, that says something about how we've come to view the subject. People speak of "justice" being served by capital punishment, but I fail to see how a life sentence without parole is any less of a representation of judgment. Maximum-security prisons aren't about cable TV and fitness centers; in many ways, they're hell on earth. There are probably many people who would much rather take their own life than spend a year in one, to say nothing of fifty years. So, let me ask you: why do we need the death penalty? What purpose does it serve? Does it help society, or does it only make us feel better about ourselves?

(The one thing that has struck me the most about this whole incident has been the European response to the execution. While I can understand their viewpoint, I think it's entirely inappropriate for them to levee huge amounts of criticism, particularly for this one case alone. Did the other 1001 people put to death not mean anything; does this just have to do with the high-profile nature of this case? Regardless, this is a question for the American people; let us decide on our own what course we will take in the future.)

Tookie wrote children stories and was a changed man. Ask yourself if he was not on death row would he have wrote those books.

Ya, he wrote a childrens book or two. Any of you know who those books were dedicated too? Let me clue you in...

Mumia Abu-Jamal- convicted of killing a police officer in Philidelphia.

Leonard Peltier- Convicted of killing two FBI agents in South Dakota.

George Jackson- accused of killing a correctional officer in Soledad Prison, and who himself was killed, along with three prison officers and two other inmates during aa attempted escape from San Quentin.

I am sure he had the best of intentions when he dedicated his anti-violence childerns books to a bunch of convicted cop killers...

Gimme a break...

I'd personally have to completely disagree with this statement. Are we talking about the same Jesus here? The Jesus who rejected the "eye for an eye" mentality of the Old Testament and instructed His followers to "turn the other cheek" and "love thine enemies"? The same Jesus who forgave His own executioners when He was hanging on the cross? I find it very hard to believe that Christ would support the retribution mentality of the death penalty.

Yes, it's the same Jesus..
Forgivness and punishment for a crime are two totally different topics. Tookie can be forgiven, but still pay his debt. Do not believe for a second that forgiveness equates to not having to suffer the consequence of your earthly actions.

guess all this talk about 'rehabilitation' is just that. talk.

Fusion pimp wrote:

I'd personally have to completely disagree with this statement. Are we talking about the same Jesus here? The Jesus who rejected the "eye for an eye" mentality of the Old Testament and instructed His followers to "turn the other cheek" and "love thine enemies"? The same Jesus who forgave His own executioners when He was hanging on the cross? I find it very hard to believe that Christ would support the retribution mentality of the death penalty.

Yes, it's the same Jesus..
Forgivness and punishment for a crime are two totally different topics. Tookie can be forgiven, but still pay his debt. Do not believe for a second that forgiveness equates to not having to suffer the consequence of your earthly actions.

But since when would "paying his debt" automatically equate to being put to death? Isn't a life sentence without parole just as valid a means of paying a debt? (I'm not arguing on a case-by-case basis but as a general statement.) Both cases involve the consequence of one's actions, despite the difference in their severity. Showing love and forgiveness toward one's enemies, only to go ahead and put them to death, seems to be an irresolvable contradiction. The whole purpose of the death penalty is that of vengance, a life for a life; that's straight out of the Code of Hammurabi. Are you saying that a part of our legal system should follow that type of standard?

Birdseye wrote:
Do you think Jesus would have supported capital punishment?

I'm confused by a lot of right wing people who are deeply into the christian religion, yet support capital punishment.

Maybe you can clarify this for me?

Actually, no capital punishment wouldnt have been approved by jesus.

Does that stop a police officer from beating someone in you're street if he does something stupid? No.

Jesus and the government are completely different, as with the so called "christian" sentiments nowadays you would find a "christian" back then was very different then what they are nowadays.. As far as i recall they coined the term christian to distinguish themselves from the very shifty pagan mobs back in roman times.

ROFL. I know (hope) this isn't how you meant it, but my reflexive logical side can't help but noting...

Dedman wrote: Last time I checked, prison life was no cake walk. Additionally plenty of murderers get life instead of the death. Moreover, the death penalty has been shown to not be a deterrent. This leaves revenge. Revenge isn't justice.

That's one hell of a syllogism.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent.
Eliminating deterrence leaves revenge as a motive.
Revenge isn't justice.

Exercise for the reader: What does this tell us about Dedman's definition of justice?

Drakona wrote: Exercise for the reader: What does this tell us about Dedman's definition of justice?

That you sure as HELL dont mess with drakona haha

Ferno wrote:guess all this talk about 'rehabilitation' is just that. talk.

x2

Okay, you win.

Why is everyone such a pussy? They probably SHOULD die for revenge if for nothing else...

Drakona wrote:ROFL. I know (hope) this isn't how you meant it, but my reflexive logical side can't help but noting...

Dedman wrote: Last time I checked, prison life was no cake walk. Additionally plenty of murderers get life instead of the death. Moreover, the death penalty has been shown to not be a deterrent. This leaves revenge. Revenge isn't justice.

That's one hell of a syllogism.

The death penalty isn't a deterrent.
Eliminating deterrence leaves revenge as a motive.
Revenge isn't justice.

Exercise for the reader: What does this tell us about Dedman's definition of justice?

It's actually more than just a simple syllogism:

Syllogism A:
1. The death penalty lacks deterrence.
2. Punishments that lack deterrence are revenge alone.
Therefore:
3. The death penalty is revenge alone.

Syllogism B:
3. The death penalty is revenge alone.
4. Revenge alone is not justice.
Therefore:
5. The death penalty is not justice.

It says that his definition of justice excludes the death penalty. I don't get it. Isn't this obvious from the way he originally wrote it?

In a way, Jesus and Socrates both proved they were pro death penalty even when they knew the verdict was wrong!
Tough acts to follow those two were [/yoda voice]

(which makes me wonder, did Jesus commit suicide by not asking for his father to save him? (I mean "save" in an earthly sense))

PS: The one thing that the execution provides us is we now, for the first time, can say we are absolutely safe from the criminal.

Nirvana wrote:Why is everyone such a *****? They probably SHOULD die for revenge if for nothing else...

Ya, Why do Pro-DP people back away from this so much. It's like the anti-DP people try and back the DP people into this corner, and they try and run away from it. But why? If there is any part of the Pro-DP argument I can understand, its probably this.

Ya, Why do Pro-DP people back away from this so much.

Most likely because I'm not interested in spending the next 3 days following and responding to a thread that, regardless of the opinion of posters- we have the death penalty and Tookie is dead.

Twas the night before Tookie's execution


Twas the night before Christmas and all through San Quentin,
the crips were protesting, and liberals were ventin'.

The cyanide hung by the chamber wth care,
in hopes that the reaper soon would be there.

The inmates were nestled all snug in their bed;
except for Old Tookie, who soon would be dead.

And me with my beer mug, dressed warm in my flannel,
had curled up to watch it, on the Fox News Channel.

I set up my TIVO to record the news station,
and thoroughly loved the momentous occasion.

It seemed lady justice had gotten her way,
and that there would be one less savage today.

When outside the jail there arose such a clatter,
the cameras had turned to see what was the matter.

When what to my civilized eyes did appear,
but a lineup of actors, all liberal, half queer.

The misguided freaks drew some curious looks,
as they proclaimed his innocence; clutching his books.

The tears then flew out from Sarandon's eyes,
as she nominated him again for the Nobel Peace Prize.

The actors were tethered to an ACLU sleigh,
all towing the line of the urban decay.

On Asner, on Penn, on liberal cop-haters,
On Sharpton, on Jesse and other race-baiters.

Then at 3:01 all curled up like a beetle,
Tookie cried like a ★■◆● as they gave him the needle.

When up from the actors there arose such a cry,
they had failed in their mission, and Tookie DID DIE !!

I heard Bill O'Reilly say, as I turned out my light,
Merry Christmas to all ... there was justice tonight !!

SAWEET did you write that Couv?

CUDA wrote:SAWEET did you write that Couv?

No I saw it somewhere and thought of this thread.

Awesome Couv! Good riddance to that sumbitch.

btw, you need to come on TS more often.

" When what to my civilized eyes did appear,
but a lineup of actors, all liberal, half queer. "

I love it. Great find!