DescentBB

I was watching an interesting science show about Mars last night, where they discussed how we would eventually terraform Mars for colonization.


They mentioned in this video that terraforming would essentially happen by heating the planet up until the ice underneath the sand would eventually melt and cover the planets surface, creating lakes and such and eventually an atmosphere would form. The scientist that said this, mentioned that it would take only 50-100 years for this to happen which sounds like total horse-★■◆●.


Another scientist which I am more inclined to believe said that this would be impossible, being that our atmosphere requires some form of recycling system such as the many forms of plant-life. Otherwise, all you have is a whole lot of water and CO2. He stated that most likely we would probably wear some sort of mask to cycle the air for us and that human engineering would have to create a way for us to recycle the air.


Then it was mentioned that cyano algae could be dumped in massive ammounts into the ocean but even that wouldn't be significant enough and that we would probably have to create enormouse ammounts of plant life through greenhouses and that some sort of stable atmosphere would be needed for this to happen.


All in all this would take 2-3 centuries before we would ever start to see this happen from what they said. Which is a lot more believable.


The other problem with living on Mars would be the fact that being on that planet would most likely change our bodies. A doctor said that the heart shrinks significantly during long ammounts of bed rest, thus in space we might see the same effect, they also mentioned that the most sufficient way to move around in low gravity is to hop along on two legs like many animals do when they run, thus we may all begin to adapt to this, along with probably smaller muscles. They also mentioned that our brains would become larger. So this is what I am wondering, what would cause our brains to become significantly larger?

My bet would be the oxygen levels. Even with man made air, there would be times that the brain would not be getting all it wants. This would cause the \"future\" brains to grow larger to provide more area for the increased amount of blood carrying veins and capillaries. Just my guess....

On a side note, I feel sorry for Mars. We messed up this planet enough with global warming and now we have our sights on another to mess up. Sad.

Bee

...heating the planet up until the ice underneath the sand would eventually melt...

I think that's your biggest problem, that's an enormous amount of energy and it has to sustained.

You're missing the point, Bet. By the time we can colonize Mars we'll be able to perform a transplant of global warming from Earth to Mars, thus solving everything!!

I think the scientists might have got inspired from this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Recall_(film)

Perhaps there is already alien technology there ready for us to flip the switch

ok, how about setting up a solar powered farm to process atmospheric gas and remove the CO2. then take the CO2 and load it onto projectiles on a mass driver and fire then towards Mars. After they impact the Martian surface they can dissipate their gas payload. Over time, a CO2 rich atmosphere builds up on Mars.

Then again, CO2 in our atmosphere isn't all bad. It had been trending down (prior to recent activity) and we may have found ourselves in an incipient little ice age otherwise.

LOL@Dissent. They are allready saying that the CO2 is there from what I picked up. What they are saying is that if you heat up the planet enough for the underground ice to melt, that you would have massive oceans like you have on Earth. I \"think\" they said that supposedly the water would then evaporate and an atmosphere would form over the planet. Thus Mars would look a bit like Earth other than no trees or oxygen to breath. But hey, it has an atmosphere! Though it is useless unless you have an enormouse ammount of trees in it.


From what I saw, I forgot the theoretical method they used to melt the ice as I was in the kitchen grabbing some more grub.


I think what their intended goal is to make a much cleaner planet to live on than ours in the end.


I think you bring up a very valid point though Topher. What would sustain the this energy that would apparently \"heat up\" the planet?


This kind of stuff facinates me and I guess I like to look at it with an open mind. Perhaps I could write a bit of sci-fi about it as I am longing to do a bit of writing.

Theres another problem with living on Mars. It has no defense against cosmic rays, so you'll get more than a sun tan if you stay outside exposed.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Mars/atmosphere.html
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... atmos.html
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast31jan_1.htm

Not only would we have to be constantly shielded from such radiation, but we would have to find some way to replenish Mars' atmosphere and KEEP it there. No small task IMO. That would take technology LEAPS AND BOUNDS more advanced than what we have at the moment.

Right, but this is a hypothetical question, assuming that Mars' allready has an atmosphere. I allready said more like 2-3 centuries and that terraforming Mars' wouldn't happen overnight. It would have to use technology we currently do not have at the moment.


I'm asking hypothetically, what transformations in the human body would occur over a long period of adaptation to the new environment. Specifically, why would the human brain become larger while the heart would shrink in size? From what I understand, the heart would probably shrink in size due to it not requiring as much activity due to a low gravity environment.



From what I have read on a few websites over the net in the past, is that the first colonies would probably live underground and inside greenhouses/factories. Growing their own food over a LONG period of time. They would probably use the underground tunnels to collect water to drink. Growing plants in greenhouses would be required in order to protect the plants and to provide a source of food and oxygen for human inhabbitants.


Strangly enough, they also mentioned in the video that eventually the original people that colonized Mars' and people from Earth might in the end, become seperated and Mars' would develope it's own cultures and languages in the end.


They also mentioned, that nitrogen would be required in the soil we use for growing vegetation.


As this is all hypothetical, your point is mute. I allready figured in that we would have a lot of radiation issues along the way.

Bet51987 wrote:On a side note, I feel sorry for Mars. We messed up this planet enough with global warming and now we have our sights on another to mess up. Sad.

Bee

Not really anything to mess up there... it's just a rock.

The whole issue of Mars's gravity not being strong enough to hold (much of) an atmosphere kinda kills any colonization past the rudimentary. Oh well, we can still pretend to be moles...

this cries for a biosphere completely around mars to hold the atmosphere

Why even bother with the terraforming? Living in domes is teh cool.

Frankly, I'm shocked by the ignorance expressed in this thread. Let me disabuse a bunch of you of some of your false ideas.

1) Terraforming Mars is most likely an exercise which is measured in millenia, not centuries. Latest figures put it somewhere in the range of 2-5 thousand years before a t-shirt-and-no-asisstance-breathing is achievable.

2) Heating the planet is best achieved by bombarding it for centuries with asteroids tugged from the asteroid belt and impacting on Mars. We're talking tens of thousands of impacts, and objects in the sub-kilometre class.

Doing this for centuries builds up the temperature and atmospheric pressure. Pressure raises the \"roof\" on the atmosphere, and enough of it acts like the magnetic field on Earth: protecting us against cosmic rays. The atmosphere on Mars needs to be much deeper than that of Earth, in order to provide this function.

3) Bet, your first assertion simply makes no sense sorry. Human brains can not grow any larger: woman's birth canal is already at the extreme end of size, a largerbrain in humans would result in human females having hips so wide they would have difficulty walking. We've already had to endure a childhood of 10 years to pay for our large brains.

4) Dissent, the atmosphere of Mars is ALREADY almost pure CO2.

5) Mars loses its atmosphere VERY slowly. Lets' not think that an atmopshere we create would be gone in a thousand years: no - we're talking millions of years. A few Gigawatts of power used to constantly crack oxidised ground into Oxygen is all that's required to maintain an atmosphere.

6) Physiological changes to Mars colonists is pure speculation. It is likely that children born on Mars would be taller than their parents, and the size of the hearts of natural born Martians, and earth colonists is almost impossible to predict: we simply do not have enough data to make any projections. What is certain, is that there will be surprises - some good, and some bad.

7) Mars is more than capable of holding at atmosphere: IT ALREADY DOES HOLD ONE! Hell, \"the moon isn't capable of holding at atmosphere\" either, but teh fact is that if we created an atmosphere 19 times as deep as Earth's, on the moon, then you'd have a shirt sleeve environment there, and it would last for millions of years. Don't ask what that would cost!

So there you go.

If you're interested in the subject, there's a simply stunning amount of data out there, and it's not all dry and geeky either. Go Google!

Mobius wrote:Frankly, I'm shocked by the ignorance expressed in this thread. Let me disabuse a bunch of you of some of your false ideas.

O_o the all knowing God has spoken.

Mobius wrote:1) Terraforming Mars is most likely an exercise which is measured in millenia, not centuries. Latest figures put it somewhere in the range of 2-5 thousand years before a t-shirt-and-no-asisstance-breathing is achievable.

The video simply said 200-300 years. I was simply going by what they said, taking it very lightly. I would expect at least a 1000 years most likely.

Mobius wrote:2) Heating the planet is best achieved by bombarding it for centuries with asteroids tugged from the asteroid belt and impacting on Mars. We're talking tens of thousands of impacts, and objects in the sub-kilometre class.

Mobius wrote:Doing this for centuries builds up the temperature and atmospheric pressure. Pressure raises the "roof" on the atmosphere, and enough of it acts like the magnetic field on Earth: protecting us against cosmic rays. The atmosphere on Mars needs to be much deeper than that of Earth, in order to provide this function.

Meantime, probably destroying the planet.

Mobius wrote:3) Bet, your first assertion simply makes no sense sorry. Human brains can not grow any larger: woman's birth canal is already at the extreme end of size, a largerbrain in humans would result in human females having hips so wide they would have difficulty walking. We've already had to endure a childhood of 10 years to pay for our large brains.

What about the brain mass and skeletal mass growing larger in size over time? Not necessarily, just there at birth? It was suggested that we would become an entirely different race.

Mobius wrote:4) Dissent, the atmosphere of Mars is ALREADY almost pure CO2.

Mobius wrote:5) Mars loses its atmosphere VERY slowly. Lets' not think that an atmopshere we create would be gone in a thousand years: no - we're talking millions of years. A few Gigawatts of power used to constantly crack oxidised ground into Oxygen is all that's required to maintain an atmosphere.

I'mma look into this....

Mobius wrote:6) Physiological changes to Mars colonists is pure speculation. It is likely that children born on Mars would be taller than their parents, and the size of the hearts of natural born Martians, and earth colonists is almost impossible to predict: we simply do not have enough data to make any projections. What is certain, is that there will be surprises - some good, and some bad.

One thing they didn't mention is what happened to astronauts that we have allready sent into space. What happened to their hearts during that time? That would more likely be a better source.

Mobius wrote:7) Mars is more than capable of holding at atmosphere: IT ALREADY DOES HOLD ONE! Hell, "the moon isn't capable of holding at atmosphere" either, but teh fact is that if we created an atmosphere 19 times as deep as Earth's, on the moon, then you'd have a shirt sleeve environment there, and it would last for millions of years. Don't ask what that would cost!

Hehe, it would probably be cheaper to ship massive oxygen tanks to the moon in exchange for exported minerals.

Mobius wrote:If you're interested in the subject, there's a simply stunning amount of data out there, and it's not all dry and geeky either. Go Google!

Not to mention I have a brother that I can have review some of these things, who is a bit of an expert on this subject. I guess it's time to do some research and ask him to confirm some of this for me.


Of course, this is all hypothetical and I was asking more about, what effects could possibly happen to the human body during this process.

Mobius wrote:Frankly, I'm shocked by the ignorance expressed in this thread. Let me disabuse a bunch of you of some of your false ideas.

More like you show YOUR ignorance....

1) Terraforming Mars is most likely an exercise which is measured in millenia, not centuries. Latest figures put it somewhere in the range of 2-5 thousand years before a t-shirt-and-no-asisstance-breathing is achievable.

Terraforming Mars is impossible at this point. READ WHAT I PREVIOUSLY POSTED YOU IDIOT!

2) Heating the planet is best achieved by bombarding it for centuries with asteroids tugged from the asteroid belt and impacting on Mars. We're talking tens of thousands of impacts, and objects in the sub-kilometre class.

Doing this for centuries builds up the temperature and atmospheric pressure. Pressure raises the "roof" on the atmosphere, and enough of it acts like the magnetic field on Earth: protecting us against cosmic rays. The atmosphere on Mars needs to be much deeper than that of Earth, in order to provide this function.

WRONG! All bombarding will do is throw a TON of dust into the atmosphere, blocking what sunlight Mars gets, which will REDUCE THE GLOBAL TEMPERATURE EVEN FURTHER! Maybe YOU should google up on the ice age. Remember when Mt. Pinatubo went off? That alone reduced the global temperature by a couple of degrees.

3) Bet, your first assertion simply makes no sense sorry. Human brains can not grow any larger: woman's birth canal is already at the extreme end of size, a largerbrain in humans would result in human females having hips so wide they would have difficulty walking. We've already had to endure a childhood of 10 years to pay for our large brains.

Oh really? Prove it! Where is your medical data to back up your claims? You made the assertion, now back it up with evidence.

4) Dissent, the atmosphere of Mars is ALREADY almost pure CO2.

On this point we agree, because this is backed up with scientific fact via data from the Viking probes.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... atmos.html (posted in my previous post)

5) Mars loses its atmosphere VERY slowly. Lets' not think that an atmopshere we create would be gone in a thousand years: no - we're talking millions of years. A few Gigawatts of power used to constantly crack oxidised ground into Oxygen is all that's required to maintain an atmosphere.

7) Mars is more than capable of holding at atmosphere: IT ALREADY DOES HOLD ONE! Hell, "the moon isn't capable of holding at atmosphere" either, but teh fact is that if we created an atmosphere 19 times as deep as Earth's, on the moon, then you'd have a shirt sleeve environment there, and it would last for millions of years. Don't ask what that would cost!

Apparently you missed this critical part of the NASA link I posted:

Mitchell cautions that beneath these magnetic umbrellas the neutral atmosphere at Martian "sea level" isn't particularly dense -- they are not oases of air for future colonists! Rather, the mini-magnetospheres are simply places where high-altitude atmospheric losses are relatively low. Most of Mars is still subjected to the full force of the solar wind. To retain a thick atmosphere, a planet-wide magnetic field would be needed.

You also neglected to read one other critical part. Increasing the atmosphere of Mars would also require a larger gravitational well in order to hold onto it! That alone reduces the likelyhood of human life surviving on Mars w/o adequate shielding from radiation to almost nothing.

So there you go.

If you're interested in the subject, there's a simply stunning amount of data out there, and it's not all dry and geeky either. Go Google!

Maybe you should follow your own advice.

Meh - I've been disabused by Mobius.

Thx, big fella !


ps - I'm aware that the atmos is mostly CO2. however, the pressure is rather low. Just thought to try to beef it up a bit. As MD said, though, keeping it is a bit of a problem.

pss - besides, did you think I was serious. This the Cafe, hoot mon, drink up!

Bet51987 wrote:On a side note, I feel sorry for Mars. We messed up this planet enough with global warming and now we have our sights on another to mess up. Sad.

Bee

Whats the use... never mind.

All you need to know about terraforming Mars can be found in Kim Stanley Robinson's books Red/Green/Blue Mars.

In the mean time, if anyone wants to visit Mars, you can do it the 8th-14th and 23rd-31st of each month during the school year. And you can see me in my secksay NASA jumpsuit.